Would you back self ID if...

[daimbars]

Once a trans women got their GRC they had to wait a period of time (say 5 years) before they were able to have the same rights as all women? For example they would only be able to apply for a job as a women’s officer, appear on a female only panel or to compete in women’s sport after five years of lived experience as a woman?

Someone I know is meeting with her MP to discuss how to propose this legislation. She thinks it will address possible repercussions from self ID and stop it being abused. I thought it was an interesting idea I could get behind.

No. I don't see why anyone would want the diagnosis of gender dysphoria part removed at all tbh

That's true Baroque. One thing for instance that I do think will have to be conceded are things like WI, Girl Guides and other 'women's groups'. It probably won't be possible to argue that it is proportionate to exclude trans women from those.

Prisons, sports, healthcare, rape crisis and homeless shelters, I think there is much more of a chance, but there needs to be much more clarity in terms of when these service providers could/should do it. The whole debacle over gender and sex with local authorities showed that there is just not enough information out there and people don't understand the law.

massive I am not sure about whether Brexit will have a big impact. The ECHR obligations will still remain and it was the ECHR that prompted the 2004 act in the first place. But maybe there will be some impact.

I think, for all practical intents and purposes, self ID is already here. That ship has sailed.

But if you look on trans forums, you can see lots of examples where people have been challenged and refused entry into women's spaces. I've seen newspaper articles showing the same.

Just because some claim they have never been challenged, doesn't mean that's true or that it's true for everyone.

Yes good point which is why there are proposals to make the process simpler and work on a basis of Self ID so they don't have to comply with this living as a woman nonsense.

You say that 'living as a woman' is a nonsense so why are you pushing so hard for us to accept people of the opposite sex who are 'living as a woman' into female sex-segregated spaces?

I think the stories about being challenged are a bit irrelevant to the question of GRCs. There is no doubt that there is prejudice against trans people out there and I do not doubt that they will on occasion have been ridiculed and challenged and called names and told that they cannot enter certain spaces. I don't think the introduction of a new procedure for obtaining a GRC will really change how people behave towards them. It's self ID to get the certificate, not self-ID in all female spaces. The very act of being trans itself is an exercise in self-ID- you can only be trans if you say you are trans.

@jellyfrizz I'm not pushing for it. In fact my OP suggests a period of five years after getting a GRC to be eligible for women's only sex segregated spaces, prizes and shortlists. At the moment trans women can do all these things as soon as they have their GRC and in some cases before.

Peakpants, I was responding to the claim that self id was already here. Nothing to do with grc.

Peak, if people are being ridiculed and challenged might that not have something to do with the fact that many today are only 'sort of' transitioning, yet still accessing spaces as if by right?

Or also because they are being a bit rude and presumptive and so seen as disruptive - because in my experience if you try to be a decent person and are civil and polite, you are not so treated.

There seems to be a lot of blame mentality out there. Always someone elses fault. You must be the victim. This goes beyond trans matters. Seems to be a fault of the modern social media society.

But if this keeps happening to you my experience of life suggests it might be time to look in a mirror and ask if perhaps you, yourself, might have something to do with that.

Look see what you can change about yourself instead of asking the universe to melt all over you.

home that sounds pretty unfair. Gay people are also still subjected to lots of abuse as are people of colour. There are laws preventing it but many people are just ignorant twats. It has nothing to do with bringing it on themselves or looking in the mirror. I presume you would never say to a PoC that if they keep getting racist abuse, maybe they should look in the mirror?
There are some very in your face loud trans activists on twitter and in the media but at the same time, I think many of them just want to quietly get on with life and blend in. However, they might still get abuse for being trans.

By look in a mirror I was not referring to appearance. Sorry if that was poorly worded.

I meant look there to see that most arguments are between two people and not one, by definition.

You can perceive that the world is against you when sometimes you have had a part in why that seems to be the case.

I obviously do not support transphobia. Not one bit. And this has nothing to do with racism.

Being transsexual it would be ridiculous.

But the question is what IS transphobia?

Most of the things said on here are not - they are frank and honest opinions to which people are entitled using words it is anyone's righto choose to use - yet these are all over the net being seen as hate speech.

Why is that? Because when you are in a sensitive position fragile over who you are and desperate to be validated as a man or a woman then you over react to little things. It is human nature.

Part of the gatekeeping process for transsexuals up to now and that I have been through involves being taught what is and is not possible. To inject a dose of realism. This is vital in transition.

Yes, you can transition and hope that people will accept you as who you are. Yes, you can hopefully resolve your dysphoria and become a productive member of society.

But, no, you cannot actually change sex as biology is immutable.

Most of the time in day to day life that doesn't matter. But sometimes it does and you have to be aware of boundaries and respect and understand these are not slights against you personally when they emerge but have genuine reasons.

The worst thing about self ID is the removal of all of that support mechanism that advises and counsels up front.

It is in my view why so many out there now seem to be rude, insecure and looking for problems almost everywhere.

Doing that diminishes the real transphobia when it rarely happens.

The trans person who cried wolf is a caution all should heed - because say how awful it is when it really isn't and that time when it really, really is awful then you might not get the support you deserve.

Really insightful @homefromthehills

A trans friend of mine is campaigning to remove the need for counselling before accessing HRT. Their opinion is 'it doesn't help me so why is it necessary' my point was 'surely you can be willing to jump through a few hoops for all the trans people that do need and want it?' So it's interesting you say how important the counselling is.

Yes good point which is why there are proposals to make the process simpler and work on a basis of Self ID so they don't have to comply with this living as a woman nonsense.

Your slip is showing.

No slip @thebewilderness I don't have a strong opinion on self ID either way.

I know this gets mentioned and is a bone of contention but I've never actually seen an answer...

What does 'living as a woman' actually mean?

On trend the TRAs have in common is @ing people on the thread as a harassment tactic.

It is a none phrase. The point of transition is - or should be - to live as who you feel you are.

So, settle down, be happy, dress as you choose, make friends, get a job, find love, do all the normal things and kind of forget that you are/were trans.

Because transitioning is about resolving issues to be ordinary.

That's how it used to be and how it should be.

These days though it sometimes seems to mean get a huge boob job, wear mini skirts and teetering heels, take 1000 selfies, announce you are a woman now on Twitter and insult everyone and anyone. Go on the social. Be a professional trans activist. And get invited onto TOWIE.

What does 'living as a woman' actually mean?

According to those who have gone through the process it means giving up hobbies viewed as masculine by society, wearing female coded clothing, changing pronouns, telling family members and friends, and using the women's loo.

think many trans people argue in favour of self-ID. I don't think it will mean that they will all rush out and get one.

I really do. I think you're being extremely naive. The status of non GRC holders is more fragile and could be subjected to a public culture change in institutions using the exemptions to disallow self ID by the back door as we already have. If they have a GRC they share the protected characteristic of sex with women, they're not just protected by gender reassignment. I think it would be a much higher bar for exclusion and more difficult to reverse their status once they have their bit of paper from the Ministry of Truth.

I also think that it would normalise the idea of male people in female spaces to a much greater level.

According to those who have gone through the process it means giving up hobbies viewed as masculine by society, wearing female coded clothing, changing pronouns, telling family members and friends, and using the women's loo.

So, is it some kind of checklist? How is it judged? Measured?

Are there some thing you have to do and others not?

Living as a woman doesn’t really mean anything. It’s basically another way of saying they have to believe you are genuine. If you change your name, grow your hair etc they are more likely to believe you than if you do none of these things. But ultimately it depends on you saying that you feel you were born in the wrong body. Obviously there is no objective way of testing whether it’s true because it’s just a feeling- there’s no physical objective evidence of it.

If they have a GRC they share the protected characteristic of sex with women, they're not just protected by gender reassignment

I do apologise for my ignorance but - what?

So you don't have to have the full surgery to be recognised as a biological woman? I thought that was the problem, that a GRC didn't necessarily cut it where sex was concerned and that was what they were campaigning for...?