World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

[Wakame]

The World Health Organisation produces a document called the "International Classification of Diseases" (the "ICD").

Version 11 is out and you'll all be delighted to know that they have moved "gender incongruence" (their term for being trans) out of the section for mental illness and into the section for sexual health.

Here is section HA61 on "Gender incongruence of childhood" for example:

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949

And note the last line:

"Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis."

That's right - gendered behaviour and gender identity are not the same thing.

Same, of course, for HA60 "Gender incongruence of adolescence or adulthood":

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

Wakame I've not read the link and don't have time right now- please could you clarify if transgender ism (or whatever I'm supposed to call it) is classified as a disease then if it's in a document about diseases?! Surely that's not right?!

Would be interested in the views of any of our gender critical trans posters on this.

They say the following:

ICD is the foundation for the identification of health trends and statistics globally, and the international standard for reporting diseases and health conditions. It is the diagnostic classification standard for all clinical and research purposes. ICD defines the universe of diseases, disorders, injuries and other related health conditions, listed in a comprehensive, hierarchical fashion...:

www.who.int/classifications/icd/en/

So it covers diseases, health conditions and even injuries. Being trans is a recognised medical condition.

Oh, and also note that it excludes gender incongruence from paraphilic disorders.

Can you define gender identity?

What do they mean when they say that gender variant behaviour and preferences are not sufficient to give a diagnosis?

Also, if it is a health condition, how is it not a mental health condition? Surely any dysphoria refers to mental health and a feeling of mental distress? I am not trying to criticise, but surely the basis of the condition is psychological rather than physical?

gendered behaviour and gender identity are not the same thing

And the science which demonstrates that gender identity is an objective, tangible thing separate to absorbing gender stereotypes from society is......?

"Oh, and also note that it excludes gender incongruence from paraphilic disorders."
I think you'll find it is the other way round. Plus gender incongruence has a strong component of dysphoria in the listings I skimmed. Plus 2 years as regards children.

"What do they mean when they say that gender variant behaviour and preferences are not sufficient to give a diagnosis? "

A boy has to do/exhibit more than just wanting to wear dresses, play with dolls, and start netball. Although the preferences as regards toys/activites/friends is still listed under childhood incongruence, because I presume they think it is one way that a child indicates their desire to be the other gender. But not sufficient on its own. Note also the 'two years'.

Thanks SomeDyke but surely it is nearly always based on the trans person’s own perception of their body and their own feeling that they are the ‘wrong sex’? There aren’t any objective markers of ‘genuine trans’ other than listening to and taking seriously the narrative of those who suffer from gender dysphoria. I don’t think anyone is ever diagnosed with being trans if they do not themselves believe they are trans. Whereas other conditions like pneumonia, depression, bipolar disorder, broken leg, can all be diagnosed regardless of whether the patient perceives themselves to be suffering from this.

Thanks SomeDyke but surely it is nearly always based on the trans person’s own perception of their body and their own feeling that they are the ‘wrong sex’?

Doesn't this require a belief in a soul which is somehow separate from the body?

I find it interesting that it seems to exclude all the trans people who have no desire to alter their sex characteristics.

Trans might not be classified as a mental health disorder but we are regularly told that it is comorbid/strongly associated with mental health disorders - after all mere mention of the words ‘woman’ and ‘menstruation’ seems to be sufficient to make them suicidal.

OldCrone the point I am trying to make is that there is no objective marker of someone being born ‘in the wrong body’. The only way a disorder can be diagnosed is if the person reports that they believe they have been born in the wrong body and are distressed about it. Therefore I am not entirely sure I agree with the WHO argument that it’s not just about how the person feels. It is entirely about how the person feels. Yes, liking football instead of dolls is not sufficient to bring on a diagnosis of gender dysphoria but any diagnosis of of gender dysphoria must involve the patient saying ‘I believe I was born in the wrong body’.

Actually, had a look at ICD 11; ‘gender incongruence’ is still listed under “mental, behavioural and neurodevelopmental disorders”

It's not, I don't think? It's under "sexual health" along with categories like "paraphilic disorders"

Without wishing to shut anything down, this isn't the trans board, so can I ask what relevance this thread has to the furtherance of the rights of women and girls?

Oops, sorry Moss you are correct - it is in both categories.

I think two things to note. Firstly, always a strong mention of dysphoria (unlike some current activism where dysphoria not required). Plus a strong statement as to what the issue is. Assuming, for example, that kids are trans just because they like the wrong things, dress the wrong way, play the wrong sports, have unusual hobbies, or wear too much make-up, like boys rather than girls (and vice versa), is labelled as wrong here -- despite this is what many parents seem to do (cue all the what blanket they chose when they were a baby etc etc anecdotes).
I think the listing is actually quite good, and a strong focus on dysphoria, and kids giving a clear statement in what the issue is, and the two years thing. A lot more sensible than it could have been, frankly.............

"so can I ask what relevance this thread has to the furtherance of the rights of women and girls?"
Well, WHO guidelines do seem to indicate that gender non-conforming girls, or girls who like girls, should not be labelled as trans based on that alone (rather than just possibly gender nonconforming girls who might later be lesbians).
And I'd be all for encouraging gender non-conformity in girls, frankly!

PeakPants

OK, I think I see what you're getting at. The trans diagnosis has to be effectively a self diagnosis of feeling that they have the wrong body. Stereotypical actions and behaviours are part of it, but it also requires the person to have a belief that they are in the wrong body.

SomeDyke, yes, agreed on that point, certainly.

I'm just seeing so many OPs of this type, bringing up random links about trans definitions and suchlike, and contributing to the endless trans focus of FWR at the moment.
It's hard not to view it as another version of derailing a particular thread to make it about something else entirely - TRAs making FWR 'all about me', if you like.

Yes yes definitely agree that it’s good that gender non conformity is not labelled as transgenderism.
A bit confused re the insistence that it is a medical condition but definitely not a mental disorder. To me, it must be entirely in the mind. It doesn’t really help anyone to pretend otherwise. I can see that trans people would consider that to be stigmatising, but realistically how else can the condition of gender dysphoria be explained? A body is a body is a body. The only difference between someone who is dysphoric and someone who is not is how they experience and perceive that body.

FloralBunting Tue 19-Jun-18 13:37:28

Without wishing to shut anything down, this isn't the trans board, so can I ask what relevance this thread has to the furtherance of the rights of women and girls?

A quick glance shows 17 trans related threads on the front page mostly started by afaik gender critical women. Do you really expect the othering of transgender people and disparaging statements about their identities to go unchallenged?
There are many posts on FWR stating trans is a mental illness and Wakame has posted the most recent ICD, which counters those ideas. Is this not acceptable? Or do you prefer an echo chamber?

I think the classification scheme is quite interesting. Putting gender issues and dysphoria under conditions related to sexual health is logical, given that it is secondary and primary sexual characteristics that people are dysphoric about.
Also, the focus on dysphoria, since that is what is potentially treatable, a focus on the medical side, which surely should be to reduce dysphoria, however that is done.

All of which is far different to the line coming from some activists, which is much more the inner belief and soul and you should believe it too pseudo-religious nonsense. This instead focuses very clearly on actual medical issues, not pseudo-religious nonsense. And what can you do to alleviate distress is a slightly different question as to what 'causes' it, although possible treatments will differ depending on how you answer the latter question.

I see it is trying to hold-fast to evidence based medical approach, rather than anything else.

Poula the most recent ICD says it IS a mental, behavioural or neurodevelopmental disorder.