World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

[Wakame]

The World Health Organisation produces a document called the "International Classification of Diseases" (the "ICD").

Version 11 is out and you'll all be delighted to know that they have moved "gender incongruence" (their term for being trans) out of the section for mental illness and into the section for sexual health.

Here is section HA61 on "Gender incongruence of childhood" for example:

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949

And note the last line:

"Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis."

That's right - gendered behaviour and gender identity are not the same thing.

Same, of course, for HA60 "Gender incongruence of adolescence or adulthood":

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

This isn’t really about whether or how people should be segregated though, it’s about standards and pathways of care etc?

*"gender identity" is person's innate sense of their own sex. You should know that by now. Not everyone has one of course, or at least, not everyone is aware of it. They are called "agender" and are actually part of the non-binary trans spectrum."

I thought agender meant you had a gender identity (still waiting for a decent non circular definition of that) butvit wasn’t Male or female?

So I’m aware I’m female - I’m pregnant, deffo female. Pretty sure of that. But my sense of it isn’t any kind of innate ‘I iz laydee’ feeling it’s from looking downwards at this sodding great bump I have. I see it, I see and experience my female biology, so I know I’m female.

Awareness of sex isn’t gender identity. It’s having senses that tell you you’re female of Male. It’s not an innate sense, it’s observable reality. So no, I don’t think awareness of the sexed body is what’s meant by gender identity AT ALL.

Because some people can look at their sexed body and still ‘feel’ like that observable reality doesn’t match their internal whatever it is. So it can’t be physical awareness of the body. Or no one would have the mysterious gender identity that didn’t match their sexed body

So *what's a gender identity?’

I need an explanation that doesn’t use souls, Cartesian duality or a circular argument. What is it?

"I thought agender meant you had a gender identity (still waiting for a decent non circular definition of that) butvit wasn’t Male or female?"

No that's bigender / demigender etc
Agender is no internal feeling of gender and according to stonewall (at least when I got a thing at work) was "rare"
Although in practice most people at least on MN and who I've asked IRL seem to be "agender"

I think that agender is probably standard and having any kind of internal gender ID is unusual - they've got it the wrong way round. Has anyone ever checked this in the general population? I've not heard of anything. It's difficult as most people think gender means sex so if you ask what gender they are they just tick their sex.

So if most people don't have this feeling it's no surprise that it's a difficult conversation.

Like when spiritual friends talk about "knowing" that there is sometihng "more" - nope no idea what you're on about.

It's an impossible conversation if for a large swathe of society this feeling is not something they know, and they have to take in on trust that others feel it.Which is OK until you get into >> I feel this feeling therefore I am something that physical evidence says I am not and moreover I want XYZ in order to accommodate me... Then we get some issues.

So what's a gender identity?

I need an explanation that doesn’t use souls, Cartesian duality or a circular argument. What is it?

My theory (based on an admittedly patchy reading of the literature and reading the experiences of transsexuals) is that it is probably due to an innate 'mis-wiring' of the brain in people with gender dysphoria.

I am very far from convinced that everyone who claims to be trans has this condition.

Blimey how confusing.

We all appear to be under this umbrella don’t we? If only there were simple and scientifically fact based words for each type..

The fundamental idea

that sex is irrelevant

is ridiculous

and that's the end of it really

there may be internal gender id
some people may have it more than others
there may be mechanisms at work behind it
i'm open to all this

why does that mean we need to remove / obliterate / ignore the fact of reproductive sex in humans (and mammals?)

I mean sex as in male female -

it's all about reproduction after all

from an animal perspective

obviously it matters and is real

or, no babies, no human race

It is irrelevant.

I don’t care whichbof the fifty three billion genders someone thinks they are any more than if they think they have a soul. Label yourself whatever you want. It’s just an opinion. It can’t be seen, measured, looked at, or apparently even defined in logical terms.

What’s important is sex, in certain situations. So we segregate or protect based on sex.

I definitely identify as ‘don’t know what your on about’.

Flowers, would your description make it something akin to ASD? A non-neurotypicality-type thing?

And would that help to explain the current clusters of ASD/dysphoric teens?

I watched a YouTube video of 4 young male born people describing themselves as ‘trans butches’ last night and I can see why such categorising would be appealing to people who don’t fit in socially yet have a need for structure and rules.

My own non-neurotypical son is the complete opposite - he thinks the whole gender identity thing is an absolute nonsense.

We keep being told it’s a spectrum, maybe that common language is more astute than I realised?

For anyone who doesnt know already Wakame policed the Guardian CIF comments section ( with others) until any and all responders that disagreed with their narrative were perma banned or put into moderationj ( i was in moderation for 18 months folks after commenting there for 12 years)

Wakame's angle is a love letter to 1984 - they insist that science agrees with them because they know that 'science' is the only thing in society that commands respect these days in ideology wars. When there simply isnt the data there.

Obviously its up to everyone else what they do but personally i would always advocate for not giving someone the attention and platform they want when their intentions are nefarious at best.

That is interesting information. You mean as a contributor or a mod?

That is interesting information. You mean as a contributor or a mod?

Wakame was a constant contributor on trans or gender identity comments who weaponised the reporting system against even mild gender critical commentary. Did W have any formal role, Dresden?

Interesting indeed.

Well yes, it comes as no great surprise to learn that Wakame has a tenacious focus on their narrow viewpoint all over the internet and will behave in authoritarian ways to ensure their voice drowns out any critique. The ego is trans parent and quite familiar.

Well said Dresden.

I've posted before that my heart sank when I saw the seaweed one's name appear on FWR and sure enough it's the same load of bs that was sprayed all over the Guardian btl for years.

Utterly pointless to engage imo especially now that MN seems to be going the way of the Guardian with its pro-penis bearers policing policy...how do we kick against the pricks effectively?

I had no idea they were responsible for getting posters banned at the Guardian though...

Report when you can, ignore the rest I guess.