World Health Organisation ICD 11 on trans people

[Wakame]

The World Health Organisation produces a document called the "International Classification of Diseases" (the "ICD").

Version 11 is out and you'll all be delighted to know that they have moved "gender incongruence" (their term for being trans) out of the section for mental illness and into the section for sexual health.

Here is section HA61 on "Gender incongruence of childhood" for example:

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949

And note the last line:

"Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis."

That's right - gendered behaviour and gender identity are not the same thing.

Same, of course, for HA60 "Gender incongruence of adolescence or adulthood":

icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f90875286

Put simply, gender non conformity and having a gender identity isn’t/ shouldn’t be considered to be anything other than choice of expression and how one thinks of oneself and wants to express oneself.

Once someone is distressed by their sexed body to the point it impacts on day to day living, this is a condition warranting treatment and attention to help alleviate symptoms so as to lead a fulfilling life.

Sex is immutable and non changeable. Gender identity exists independently of one’s sex, linked to sex and not at all. If this causes distress, seek treatment for the distress. If it doesn’t, good stuff.

In the meantime, provide sex based provision where they are warranted and create some unisex spaces for those who do not want to use the sex based provision!

Do they define gender?
Differently from the WHO?
Not at all?

I can't engage without these terms being defined.
You can't be incongruent with a thing if that thing has no meaning to be incongruent with.
You can't conform to a vacuum of meaning.

words, words, words

Gender incongruence of childhood is characterized by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children.

I agree Barracker. It's meaningless waffle without a definition of exactly what they mean by gender.

It can only mean a failure to conform to stereotypes. But exactly why that should be any sort of a problem or disorder is beyond me.

THis is a link to the recent 'We need to talk' meeting.

Sheila Jeffries speaks in-depth about the international context and history of legislation and policies about gender identity,

Has it occurred to any of you that the deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

Or perhaps you are so invested in your political ideology that you are unable to contemplate anything that disproves it.

My advice would be that if you don't understand what gender identity is, do more research, speak to more trans people, but open your minds first so that you can absorb the information. It doesn't mean you can't still be a feminist, but ideologies must adapt to advances in science or you end up sounding like creationists.

Perhaps you might watch Sheila Jeffries discussion Wakame. I don't know much about the wider legal historical context?

I have heard of the Yogakarta principles and remember them being discussed here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3228002-Yogyakarta-principles

I have a very open mind and try to read as much as I can to understand better.

I also (like Jon Ronson) favour humans over ideologies.

The Ted Talk he gave, 'How one tweet can ruin your life' is very interesting and worth watching:

He discusses how SM has been used to ill effect, about the power of mob shaming and how it has created a surveillance society.

but ideologies must adapt to advances in science or you end up sounding like creationists.

Hi Wakame, where can I find the advances in science that explain what gender identity is please.

Has it occurred to any of you that the deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

Or perhaps you are so invested in your political ideology that you are unable to contemplate anything that disproves it.

My advice would be that if you don't understand what gender identity is, do more research, speak to more trans people, but open your minds first so that you can absorb the information. It doesn't mean you can't still be a feminist, but ideologies must adapt to advances in science or you end up sounding like creationists.

Oops - double post - my apologies.

They keep trying to find a way to weed out the AGPs.
If you compare the positions they have published it is obvious they are running as fast as they can just to stay in one place.

Please do not insult our intelligence by substituting a claim of proof for current speculation.

Wakame

Do you have a gender identity?

Has it occurred to any of you that the deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

Unlike true believers most Feminists do ask themselves the "is it me or is it them" question on a regular basis.

Wakame can I ask you this. Do you genuinely believe that trans people have an opposite sex brain in their body. Genuinely though.

deficiency here is not in the science and clinical experience that informs one of the world most important medical guides, but is actually in your knowledge and understanding of a complex medical condition?

There are lots of people who dispute the existence of diagnoses that is based on social constructs rather than physical measures. ADHD and dyslexia are widely disputed across science.

These views are not considered to be bigoted and often cone from ‘science and clinical experience’. There are plenty of scientists and clinicians who disagree with versions of ICD and DSM.

Wakame - is your definition of "woman" a person who occupies and performs the female role in society?
Because most people I know (and I did a straw poll of random carers on the school run this afternoon) think a woman is someone with a female or xx body. Someone of the sex who can bear children.
If we have different definitions for standard every day words, then communication becomes very hard, and common ground pretty impossible.

The term used is not gender identity but incongruence. I can see concerns about stigma of mental health are important and has been a major driver for the change. There is so little detail in the definition however, I don't see this as progress for individuals suffering dysphoria.
No one knows the cause of this incongruence and therefore the jury is still out on best treatments.

I thought that scientific progress was forged on challenging convention.

Bit much to say no one knows the cause.

Or perhaps you are so invested in your political ideology that you are unable to contemplate anything that disproves it.

This is what we are trying to combat, not what we are doing.

mobile.twitter.com/BlanchardPhD/status/1009202645918199808
Blanchard says:
RE: The proposed placement of gender identity disorders in the ICD-11. In my opinion, this represents an attempt to placate trans activists while maintaining the conditions necessary for third party payment for surgery.

If the NHS actually believes you can have an opposite sex brain in your body I'd like them to put up a neurosurgeon to say it. Bring it on.

"Do you have a gender identity?"

Yes. Do you?

"Wakame can I ask you this. Do you genuinely believe that trans people have an opposite sex brain in their body. Genuinely though."

The answer to that is complex and nuanced. Human sex differences are not a simple binary. There are statistically significant sex differences in human brains, but there is also a huge overlap and few people have fully masculine or feminine brains.

There are certainly brain anomalies in trans people, and it is reasonable therefore to speculate that gender identity has some relationship to those anomalies, but scientists have yet to work out the exact seat of gender identity, or how the various parts so far identified interact with each other.

Trans people also have genetic anomalies, but again, although it is fairly clear that they are relevant, it is not yet clear which of those anomalies informs gender identity and in what way.

So, to answer your question as best I can - trans people have a gender identity (a person's innate sense of their own sex) which is at odds with the degree of masculinity or femininity of their body, and there are both genetic and neurological markers that bear some connection which is not yet fully understood.

Here are links to 26 peer-reviewed articles on trans brains:

www.cakeworld.info/transsexualism/what-is/brain-similarities

And here is some recent preliminary research on some of the genetic anomalies:

www.abstractsonline.com/pp8/#!/4592/presentation/578abstract

"There are plenty of scientists and clinicians who disagree with versions of ICD and DSM."

Of course, and there always will be, but medical science moves by broad consensus, and that is currently against you.