Kylie Jenner Father's Day Post

[Moonkissedlegs]

So Kylie Jenner has posted a 'Father's Day' post to her 109 million Instagram followers: the caption says 'we are so lucky to have you' and its 7 or 8 pictures of her as a child with her and her sister with their parents, with Caitlyn obviously pre transition.

I just thought, good on her. She obviously does not see her father as a 'woman' in any way, he is her dad. But I was also just thinking about it in this climate of having to be so careful about deadnaming and misgendering. I don't know, like would people give a young woman shit for misgendering her own dad? Do people really believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman? Am I even allowed to say that?

There were a few comments about 'transphobia' underneath but a lot of them seemed to be kind of sarcastic, which suggests that no one really actually buys it. And if CJ isn't a woman, then how are other transwomen 'actually' women?

As an aside, I also found it quite sad - all these pictures were such happy ones of her as a kid with her happily married parents. It does seem like she had quite a happy childhood before all the Kardashian stuff kicked off. It seems like she was longing for that time again or something posting these pics, there were no current or recent ones on the post.

Apologies for lowering the tone in Feminism Chat with a KJ post!

I might be wrong but I understand Jenners kids all still call Jenner 'dad'.

Jenner sometimes calls themselves Bruce, or he, because they said old habits die hard.
(lol Bruce, die hard)

How the rest of us are meant to get it right, god knows.

How the rest of us are meant to get it right, god knows.

Yes, this is it isn't it!

( at Bruce, die hard!)

Jenner may be a rich white republican Trump lover, but in some ways they're almost on our side. They see shades of nuance where others see black and white.

im quite confused by this aswell. i saw a post on twitter by a M>F trans and it was how their child had really taken to the new pronouns (she/her), how proud they were, then showing off the fathers day card and how proud they were to be a dad.

surely if you are using she/her then you use other female pronouns? or be referred to as a “parent” and not mum/dad? im not trying to be goady, i generally couldnt get my head around that tweet. so you basically pick and choose which parts of your life you want to be associated with your new gender, while also keeping some parts of your previous gender.

🤯

I might be misremembering, but didn't CJ say on the Genderquake farce that some of the children say "she's my dad" when talking about CJ?

“My son is bloody awesome. From the age of 9 he totally got the hang of she/her. This morning he gave me my father’s day card, gave me the biggest hug and told me he loves me 😊. I’ll always be his dad even if I’m a woman and we’ll always be there for each other.”

the tweet ^

Well yes, tweets like the above are the problem, how in earth are we supposed to know what is correct when apparently it's completely ambiguous anyway.

On the one hand, misgendering is 'hate speech', and women are being threatened for not conforming to 'correct langauge'. And on the other, some transwomen are saying 'yes of course I'm their dad, even though I'm totes a woman'.

So which would you get a strike for?

Saying KJ is a man, or KJ is a woman?

Lol. These new rules are fab.

Didn't Hope just get a Twitter ban for referring to herself as "him"?

I presume Kylie Jenner will be getting an Instagram ban for her transphobic post?

As I understand it, I think it's less about trying to get it "right" but allowing people to choose what is right for them and then respecting that choice.

So with the above tweet, the child understands who their dad is, but they also understand she is a woman. It is not for us to second guess which pronouns to use, rather be directed by the person who has the preference.

I especially enjoy the logic that says TW can remain dads
but calling pregnant women 'mothers' is exclusionary.

Just ask people what they want to be called and stick to it. Pretty sure Kylie knows what her dad wants better than any of us.

Listener73 the rules become impossible to keep track of if you have to remember each persons preference especially when their preferences change over time and they themselves get into trouble using their own preferences (for example Hope getting temporarily suspended from Twitter for using their personal preferences when referring to themselves).

I'm honestly not sure what pronoun I'm allowed to use for Hope on this forum or anywhere else except if I was to be in direct conversation. (As an aside I love Hope's style, would love to meet them)

argument I get my own children's names mixed up and there are only 2 of them. Remembering which pronouns go with which people considering the ever expanding list of them is not simple. Particularly if these preferences change over time or people claim not to care.

SpareRibFem yes it certainly can be tricky and we're definitely in a period of change of working out how best to manage things - eg the Twitter incident above, hopefully in a few years we will have worked through some of the more extreme cases.

Generally speaking I don't think it is too impossible we manage to remember many people's names in our lives. There might be times when we get it wrong or forget, but if we apologise and make a correction when we realise or when we are corrected it should be manageable.

I detest C J she is so vapid and vain and selfish however kylie calling caitlyn dad is surely between Caitlyn and Kylie the before photos is how Kylie remembers her childhood so I don't think it is a huge deal caitlyn talks about bruce and being a father openly Caitlyn is not denying bruce.

It's up to the kids to decide to call their parent post transition, end of discussion. A decent parent will accept that. I don't do the social media thing, but if I did I'd just stay out of it out of respect for the parent child relationship.

As I understand it, I think it's less about trying to get it "right" but allowing people to choose what is right for them and then respecting that choice.

See, I just wouldn't have a problem with this normally. But we are living in a climate where there are pushes to erase language around womanhood. Where people are getting banned on Twitter because they aren't using what is deemed by whatever powers that be, to be the 'correct pronouns'. Where cancer charities are using 'people with a cervix' instead of 'woman'. Where its possible that laws that safeguard women will be changed. Where women who want to discuss any of this are being threatened with violence.

So sorry, but I just don't think that 'let people call themselves what want' cuts the mustard actually. If you want everyone else to change everything about themselves to make you feel better, then you should at the very least be consistent with what you are asking for.

Moonkissedlegs yes - there are definitely challenges with this that need to be worked through and solutions need to be found (and I don't know what they are!). I don't think we should be erasing language around womanhood, but I do think the aim should then be to keep language around womanhood rather than preventing someone identifying as both a father and a woman.

In the case of the "people with a cervix" I don't have a problem with this personally, but as per the other thread on this I do think it should be reflected in the male cancers too.

I think "If you want everyone else to change everything about themselves to make you feel better, then you should at the very least be consistent with what you are asking for." is a bit unfair. People aren't being asked to change "everything" about themselves, they are being asked to be refer to others in a way they feel comfortable with. I think it is polite to do so. If someone called Rebecca hates being called Becky, we wouldn't deliberately refuse to do it.

Listener73

Up until recently I have happily used peoples preferred pronouns, but the extreme policing of women's use of those pronouns and the ignoring of men's misuse has made something I used to do mostly without thinking difficult (although I still try I have no wish to offend/upset someone who has not personally offended me) however If I am being forced to do something by threats of violence I will do it unwillingly or not at all.

People aren't being asked to change "everything" about themselves, they are being asked to be refer to others in a way they feel comfortable with. I think it is polite to do so. If someone called Rebecca hates being called Becky, we wouldn't deliberately refuse to do it.

The thing is, up until fairly recently, women people were happy to do this. Women accepted transwomen in toilets and other places as a courtesy, because transwomen genuinely weren't doing any harm and every seemed to get along OK.

But then something happened, and women's boundaries have started to be pushed and pushed. Women are told that they can't talk about reproductive issues because its 'exlcusionary', women are told that they have to move over in sports, politics, the arts and give up their hard fought for spaces in these areas to people born as male. Women are told that they should have to share their toilets, changing rooms and refuges with men who 'self id' as women.

And so women are saying 'actually enough', and now calling men... Men.

It feels like a lot of these men want to have their cake and eat it. Doesn't CJ still use their male golf club membership whilst at the same time being happy to take a 'Woman of the Year' award?

Like I said in my OP, I'm glad that KJ still feels that she can call CJ 'dad' and presumably CJ is happy with this. But then does that make CJ less of a transwomen than say Lily Madigan who regularly calls for people who 'misgender' and 'deadname' them to be put in the social media stocks? Is it transphobic of me to call Caitlyn Jenner a man? Surely if 'transwomen are women' and our laws are to be changed to make this so, there needs to be a quantifiable thing which makes them so, so it can't just depend on 'how they feel' about it?

It kind of shows up how ridiculous and shaky the entire thing is.

Sorry that was a rambling post of my thoughts there!

No – not rambling at all and great points! Thank you for your reasoned response - often these boards get vitriolic very quickly.

I’m certainly not as well read or up to date on this as many others so I can’t speak accurately to your points. I haven’t seen anything where people have been told that they can’t talk about reproductive issues, but I have seen some stuff requesting more inclusive language. Similarly I haven’t seen anything where women are being told they have to move over, but I have seen trans women being given space to contribute (although sports competing is a thorny issue and I don’t pretend to have the answer to this maybe some kind of handicap?). nb I’m not saying these viewpoints aren’t out there, just that I haven’t seen them. Most of my reading on this has come from MN boards!!

On the Kylie/Caitlyn topic I don’t think it makes Caitlyn less of a trans woman than Lily Madigan for being called dad. Again I don’t know the intricacies of the Lily Madigan case. I would say if someone identifies and wishes to be known as a woman/her it is transphobic to refuse to do so and deliberately call them a man/him. If someone is trans gender but they don’t mind being called either a man or woman it would not be trans phobic to do so.

As with all complex debates there will be nuance and differing opinions. Some trans people are gender critical, some feel very strongly about being referred to as a specific gender. I feel we need to find a way of allowing everyone to be accommodated, I just don’t know how to do it!

Jeez 80k comments!

The photos are lovely. Especially the first one making a necklace in what looks like a nursery or classroom. It looks so innocent and normal compared to their lives now. But there he is doing dad stuff. It was a lovely post

I see the point you're making Listener73 but I think it is very different from remembering someone's name!
For a start, I am crap at remembering people's names but luckily will never been accused of being "bigoted" or of committing "literal violence" for a mistake.
if I mix up a username on here i do not risk a ban.
Not so with pronouns!

The photos are lovely. Especially the first one making a necklace in what looks like a nursery or classroom. It looks so innocent and normal compared to their lives now. But there he is doing dad stuff. It was a lovely post

Yes, I thought that too