Kylie Jenner Father's Day Post

[Moonkissedlegs]

So Kylie Jenner has posted a 'Father's Day' post to her 109 million Instagram followers: the caption says 'we are so lucky to have you' and its 7 or 8 pictures of her as a child with her and her sister with their parents, with Caitlyn obviously pre transition.

I just thought, good on her. She obviously does not see her father as a 'woman' in any way, he is her dad. But I was also just thinking about it in this climate of having to be so careful about deadnaming and misgendering. I don't know, like would people give a young woman shit for misgendering her own dad? Do people really believe that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman? Am I even allowed to say that?

There were a few comments about 'transphobia' underneath but a lot of them seemed to be kind of sarcastic, which suggests that no one really actually buys it. And if CJ isn't a woman, then how are other transwomen 'actually' women?

As an aside, I also found it quite sad - all these pictures were such happy ones of her as a kid with her happily married parents. It does seem like she had quite a happy childhood before all the Kardashian stuff kicked off. It seems like she was longing for that time again or something posting these pics, there were no current or recent ones on the post.

Apologies for lowering the tone in Feminism Chat with a KJ post!

Squishy absolutely nobody should be accused of bigotry or threatened for a mistake (In fact no one should be threatened with violence for a deliberate act).

However there's a difference between deliberately refusing to refer to someone as the gender they prefer and forgetting/making a mistake.

Listener thanks for your replies too.

With regards to misgendering, what is your view on trans activists who insist on calling women 'cis' even when those women have specifically said they don't want to be referred that way and find it offensive?

Caitlin had said herself that she will always be known as dad to the kids because she is their dad and wants to still be called dad.

(I’m an avid Keeping up with the Kardashians watcher)

I guess if people feel very strongly that they don't want to be referred to that way then it should be respected.

Personally I don't understand why people take offence at it. For me it's a bit like saying I'm offended at being called a "heterosexual person" you should just say I'm a "sexual person" it seems odd, but it's not for me to speak for others.

am I alone in finding that heterosexual analogy weird. The word sexual is used to mean something quite different when it isn't prefaced by hetero- or homo-

The word woman has been used to describe adult female humans without a modifier for well over a millennium.

Cis says something about gender identity, I don't have a gender identify.

I have a human female body and that has had a significant influence on the opportunities available to me and how people have treated me.

listener people find 'cis' offensive because it implies that you identify with and are comfortable with the role society expects of you based on your sex. I don't know anybody who is 'cis' because I don't know anybody who adheres to or is comfortable with those expectations fully.

i find cis offensive, even cishet. i dont want to be called either of those things.

but i dont get to choose that because of my “cishet” privelege

I feel we need to find a way of allowing everyone to be accommodated, I just don’t know how to do it!

I think some of it is a zero sum game. It's not possible both to respect the privacy and dignity of women who don't want their female spaces invaded by males, and also to please males who want to invade female spaces and women's privacy and dignity.

Similarly I haven’t seen anything where women are being told they have to move over, but I have seen trans women being given space to contribute (although sports competing is a thorny issue and I don’t pretend to have the answer to this maybe some kind of handicap?). nb I’m not saying these viewpoints aren’t out there, just that I haven’t seen them. Most of my reading on this has come from MN boards!!

Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't appear to be paying much attention. There has been plenty of evidence of this both second hand from social media or organisations or policy and first hand on these very MN boards.

he is her dad. But I was also just thinking about it in this climate of having to be so careful about deadnaming and misgendering.

Yes - misgendering like you just did.

Is it transphobic of me to call Caitlyn Jenner a man?

Yes. That's why the MN guidelines say you shouldn't do it.

Surely if 'transwomen are women' and our laws are to be changed to make this so

The law has already changed and trans women can be legally women if they want.

Transwomen have the legal right to be treated as if they were women I think. Rather than the law actually stating that they have changed sex.

Which would be bollocks.

Gender Recognition Act 2004:

"Where a full gender recognition certificate is issued to a person, the person’s gender becomes for all purposes the acquired gender (so that, if the acquired gender is the male gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

Apart from the exemptions in both the GRA and EA.

Sparerib

No you aren't alone in that. It's not a good analogy

Mind you, transplants and plats are the same thing so...

transplants and plants

P.S. Along with many on here I didn't want MN to 'ban' the use of cis. I think it show people who use it up quite successfully

Yes - misgendering like you just did.

So, you are supposed to say she is her dad?

That Caitlyn Jenner, the woman, is Kylie Jenner's father?

Anyone else seeing a problem with this?!

Soapbox I don't see cis as having implied societal expectations attached to it. As I understand it cis means that your sex and your gender are the same. So sex = female and gender = female. You can behave how you wish though.

You can be cis gender and female and still be a big football fan, and drinker of pints; conforming to societal behaviours typically associated with men doesn't conflict with being cis..

Listner what does 'gender' mean to you then?

Gender is just the social stereotypes imposed on men and women?

There is no 'innate essence' of woman or man?

I don't think you can interpret that as Kylie Jenner not seeing Caitlin as a woman. We don't know how she feels and shouldn't guess.

My grandparent was transgender, male to female. Me and my mum always called her 'she' but my mum also said that she was 'her dad'. Just because she had accepted the transition doesn't mean the role of 'dad' was gone. She already had a mum and did not want to give her dad a lesser, non parental title just because of transition.

listener what do you think a female gender is then? If 'cis' means that sex and gender are aligned, what is gender? How do I identify it?

Huh. The law is an ass. Who knew?

Listener you're not ready living up to your username, are you? You remind me a bit of people who faux-naively say "but if people from Afghanistan are Afghans, why can't I call people from Pakistan.. "

When a group of people tell you that they find a blanket term you are applying to them offensive (even taking the time to explain why they find it offensive) if you want to engage in polite discussion with them you should stop using it.

Of course if you want to be deliberately offensive, crack on. I'm all in favour of free speech. But do be aware that free speech comes with consequences. In this case that the people you want to lecture about their wrong speak may choose in return not to engage with you.

Listener73 if cis has no implied societal meaning it is meaningless and there is no point in using it

In general, I try to call people by the pronoun they prefer. I am happy to do so, as long as I have the choice. The same way I will call a Stephen Steve if he prefers, and would try to address a woman as "ms" or "Mrs" etc if that's what she wants. It seems polite to me.

I do not want to be compelled to do so, however.

And I am not Cis. My sex does not match my "gender" (or certainly not any definition of gender I've seen).
If you think that I don't know what its like to feel squeezed by societal expectations due to my genitalia, you're wrong. I was a "Tomboy" as a child, and as a teenager I increasingly felt (like loads of teenagers) like a bit of an alien. I grew up into a biological female who fits the stereotypical female gender in some ways, and not in others. ie, I am an individual human being of the female sex.
In fact, there was nothing wrong with me as a teenager, nor was there anything "boyish" about me as a child. I was an individual with an individual personality. My interest in maths and logic etc do not mean I have a "little bit of a male brain", they mean I have a female brain that is good at maths and logic.
I am lucky in that the mismatch for me is much smaller than it is for many other women.

The reason many feminists dislike the term "Cis" is because it assumes they have never struggled with a mismatch between their biological sex and society's expectations of how that sex should behave. You can surely see how this would annoy those who have struggled in this way? Especially those who have struggled more than others?

However, I still don't think the term Cis should be banned.
It is annoying, rude and many find it offensive, but it is not literal violence and it is not abuse. Neither is misgendering.