The “100,000 people alive” DUP claim - evidence?

[Cwenthryth]

Catching up with any questions/any answers, and the DUP claim that there are 100,000 people alive in Northern Ireland who have been ‘saved’ due to abortion being illegal there.

I understand that this figure comes from the campaign group Both Lives Matter.

Does anyone know how they came to this conclusion, has there been any independent verification of the claim or debunking of the calculation?

I was wondering how this figure was arrived at too.

But I was more sickened by listening to AQ/AA people (men) who believed women should have no bodily autonomy, because they didn't understand basic science.

Oh and seemed to dehumanize women to such an extent that they think we're all off having abortions in our free time. That we're not responsible enough to make decisions about our own bodies, YET we apparently are responsible enough to take responsibility for another life, for an absolute minimum of 16 years! Presumably alone, because our husbands would be being manly doing work while we child-rear tied to the kitchen sink, as, apparently, God decreed.

Every sperm and every egg could be a person. They aren't though.

It's nonsense.

The both lives matter concept It makes me feel angry as the actual implication is that women's lives matter less - any woman who becomes pregnant must have a baby whatever the social, emotional and physical cost.
If all of those hypothetical babies had been born what would have been the possible negative impact on the lives of the women who who had carried them, their partners, their siblings and the wider community ? Would some of those children entered the care system? Would there have been divorces, break ups, sorrow pain? Would some of those women have failed to make the present contribution they are now making to their families and society ?
Statistics is not my strong point by a long way, but such a narrow crass mis representation of the 'facts' is really very disappointing. The DUP have really got it wrong in my view.

Yes exactly. 100,000 unhappy mothers. Fantastic.

Flower these are real babies. And real mothers.

We don't know if the figures are correct though do we? Of course we are talking about real people so apologies if I put that across wrong.

At its most extreme the pro life stance seems to value real people -women and babies less. For many women going through with an unwanted pregnancy would have a devastating impact on them and others. But I accept that this is just my view and wouldn't wish to offend anyone else.

Both Lives Matter’s site state that their claim has stood up to complaints to the ASA

bothlivesmatter.org/statistics
bothlivesmatter.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/BLM-STEP-BY-STEP-EXPLANATION-002.pdf

I have to say on my initial reading through it still seems like really over-simplified, inconsistent maths, and glosses over how figures are arrived at for illegal abortions in NI or women who have travelled.

I think a more relevant way of looking at it though is “100,000” unwanted pregnancies and births endured by NI women. How has that impacted those women? How many of them suffered psychological issues, birth injuries, have had their physical and mental health permanently effected by not having the choice? What is the maternal mortality rate - and what has it been since 1969 - how many women have died. Or even ended their own lives. How has it impacted their pre-existing children - having their mother’s affected as above, their family’s resources having to be stretched further.

"100,000 unwanted pregnancies and births endured by NI women".
Yes exactly what I was trying to say. But women don't matter do we?

Abortion is just part of a whole range of improvements in our lives that gives us control and choice over our bodies and has stopped us having as many children as we did in the past.

You might as well count the number of fewer people born because of birth control or because women are now more financially independent and can choose when or if they have children.

It is a meaningless number.

@flowertoday
The both lives matter concept It makes me feel angry as the actual implication is that women's lives matter less

Exactly. The life of an adult, functioning woman with a life and a personality and hopes is worth no more than that of a foetus.

So where do they get their figures from? Are there really people who claim "Oh yes, I was on my way to abort this little guy here but at the last minute I decided not to do it because it was illegal" ?

As I read on Twitter once, if men were the ones who got pregnant, you would be able to get an abortion down the pub, no questions asked. It sounds very flippant but I am sick to the back teeth of middle-aged men who have no concept of pregnancy or the risk of pregnancy or of female biology full stop, pontificating about women's bodily autonomy. They genuinely think that even a lump of cells at a few weeks should trump the rights of an adult woman. They always suggest examples that women at 32 weeks decide that they can't be arsed to have their fully formed baby and want to have it murdered. In countries like Canada where abortion is legal at any stage, nearly all abortions are early stage and the only late ones are due to serious health or social risks. So their image of the irresponsible pregnant woman killing her innocent baby is literally a load of bullshit.

As an elderly Irish female taxi driver said to Gloria Steinem: "Honey, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament."

The dup are, always have been and probably always will be a pack of sectarian inbreds. Anything that comes out out their mouths needs to be taken with a mine of salt.

Some one on here called them the provisional wing of the 17th century.. I am inclined to agree.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk

Relevant as always.

There was a book a few years ago by 2 men who worked in a sub specialty of economics. They concluded that there had been a big drop in crime rates in New York some years after abortion had been legalised there. The theory seemed to be that many of those unwanted children who would have gone on to commit crimes simply had never been born. Not a popular conclusion in some quarters, as you can imagine.

The numbers mentioned and maths behind them are irrelevant to me. It's not that the people born are any different from anyone else, it's that basic principle that half the population can't choose what happens to their bodies. One woman who has choice removed is too much.

I'd be rather more impressed by the anti abortion mob if they remained celibate unless trying to conceive.

@Bowlofbabelfish

Well seeing as they haven't moved on from 1690 I'd say you're right

100k women on official record as being forced to give birth against their will.

I wonder what label future generations will give this age? Will we still be part of the dark ages in their eyes?

I was also infuriated by the DUP guy on Any Questions and a couple of men who phoned in to any answers to rant about the evils of abortion, and I wondered about those figures too.
If those numbers are right (and who knows, really) then it really is a tragedy not just for those women that were forced to continue an unwanted pregnancy but also for those children who were brought up unwanted. Whilst I'm sure many women love the children they might not have had, there must be many who are not able to. When anti-choicers say both lives mater they conveniently forget not just the woman but also the child who may suffer the effects of being the results of a crisis pregnancy for the rest of their life.
I have had three much wanted children, including one with a disability. It is bloody hard work and I cannot imagine how much harder it would be if I had a child I didn't want.

All children should be born into situations where they are wanted/the parents can cope with them. Because children are important

No woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy for any reason at all. Because women are important.

I see pope francis has waded into this as well this morning, comparing antenatal testing with throwing babies off mountains.

Ugh. Fucking hell. Have they no shame boasting of this.

Even if this number was accurate, which given the anti choice movement’s record of lying out of their sanctimonious misogynistic arses, is highly doubtful..
it’s completely obvious that preventing abortion, banning contraception, or forcing sex, conception and birth ‘saves lives’, because more people will be born, but so what? That’s a state of affairs in society that we should aspire to, is it.

They are proud of themselves that thousands of NI women have been forced to have babies that they didn’t want or couldnt look after, or who have had extremely serious or fatal medical conditions..

It's such crap argument anyway.

I'm only 'alive' because my mum and dad decided to have sex whenever it was that they did to conceive me. If my mum had said 'not tonight love' and gone to sleep, I wouldn't be 'alive' either. If my dad had ejaculated a few seconds later and the sperm had happened to miss the egg, I wouldn't be 'alive' either.

Right I'm gonna stop talking about my dad ejaculating now!

There is a bit in freakonomics about crime rates falling in the US approx 15 years after abortion was legalised/more widely available.
Their theory is that there are fewer people with issues due to being unwanted children or from unstable backgrounds.
I thought it was interesting