Poor kid

[Pratchet]

someone should answer for this

and yet this girl is being denied any real help - a very sad story. Maybe she should say she wants to be a boy, and people might listen - www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-44439735

I wanted to know why LGBT meant the first thought the mother thought of was trans.

The poor girl.

Greydog That’s sad. And at least she is older than twelve. It’s a big surgery and irreversible but if you know your whole life will be affected until it’s done I can see the appeal. I think once a woman turns 18 she should be allowed one if she wants. So what if they regret it later? That’s not for the doctor to choose. I think they should go through counselling etc first but surely we should be able to make our own decisions about our bodies. Maybe even donate to those who need from those who don’t want? If womb transplants are indeed safe and they work.

My opinion on this has been altered by the fact that I know a child in this position. Male- female trans , nearly secondary age and has lived as a girl since around 7. The other children at school mainly accept her without question as a girl as its all they have ever known, although there has been some bullying, hope things go okay next year at the new school.
Until I knew her I would have said a child can t be trans, but this little girl is 100% genuine and it's all been driven by her, not her mum. Her mum is a very down to earth person, not an attention seeker, who has a few other children , a mix of girls and boys so it isn't a case of wanting a girl. I don't know if she will go down the blocker route. I don't think I would, but I've never been in this situation. To look at her, you would never know she is very feminine and has ' known' from toddlerhood.

But how do they know unless they Ha e somewhere along the line been told that all the stuff they like is for boys or girls.

People may think they don't treat the kid any different however it was featured on a documentary on tv. They got babies together swapped the clothes over and it affected what toys people tried to use to play with them and how they spoke to them.

Boys and girls are treated differently from birth by the people around them. If they weren't then there would be no concept of being different besides anatomy.

It really is stereotypes

this little girl is 100% genuine
I don’t think anyone’s suggesting that children such as the one featured in this article are lying or faking what they say they feel or believe about themselves. We just don’t agree that any of what is claimed as evidence that they are ‘genuine’ in their budding gender identity means that they should be medicalised or told that they can become the opposite sex.

To look at her, you would never know she is very feminine
And what does a child’s appearance have to do with whether they are male or female? Why does preferring a feminine presentation = this boy must be a girl?
(My answers: not a lot - most children are pretty androgynous until puberty, and it doesn’t).

There was even a study that showed that female babies are left to cry longer than male babies. We - all of us - really are indoctrinated in gender stereotypes to that degree.

I'm sure as adults people know that climbing trees isn't an activity just for boys or tomboys. But that's what they were told as children

I see parents telling small girls this now (not climbing trees, because we're in a city, but eg pulling a small girl off a climbing frame saying "you're not a boy").

pulling a small girl off a climbing frame saying "you're not a boy").

Oh god, that’s sad.

I agree with you on the whole gender/ presentation thing it shouldn't matter with kids under teens. I also personally don't think under 18 s should have irreversible medical choices made by adults. Not so sure kids like this can t be ' told they can become the opposite sex' though. In the case of the child I know, and many others, it doesn't come from the parents treating them differently or telling them certain toys etc are for girls, it goes deeper even than the clothes they wear. The girl I know isn't even very girly these days, she has long hair but not much pink or dresses . They simply insist that they are a girl \ boy , what are parents supposed to do in this situation? Keep repeating ' you're not a girl' and ' you can decide when you're older' maybe. But parents with trans kids are usually worried about their child's mental health. It would be incredibly damaging to tell them you can never live as a girl. It's a complex issue, these kids can often have suicidal thoughts at a young age.

‘You can live as if you are a girl, but that’s not the same as actually turning into one’ might be a reasonable middle ground, Sixnearlyseven?

@hackmum "
I think there are two kinds of parents. There are those who are deeply homophobic, possibly for religious reasons, and for whom the idea of a trans child is less awful than a gay child.
The other kind are people who just don't understand the implications....They don't understand the dangers of puberty blockers, or the likelihood of permanent sterility, or the probability that their child won't have any kind of a sex life."

That reads as a sweeping generalisation of parents of trans children. That's a pretty hostile position to take, that all parents who permit (for want of a better word) their child to present as trans are either homophobic or ignorant of the implications.

Note: I'm addressing the generalisation here.

I'm sure there are some cases of very homophobic and/or very stupid parenting in all sectors of society and I'm not going to get into any specific case e.g. the one in the OP.

Thing is, as parents we can all celebrate decisions we've made that are rooted in our culture and our prejudices about what's right for our children, and celebrate those decisions, and those decisions can be absolutely wrong ones.

Some people believe that FGM is a positive practice which helps girls by promoting things like cleaniness, fertility, attractiveness, honour and all the rest of it. This view of FGM is a positive practice is clearly bullshit, and a parent who was featured in a tabloid talking about how they were planning to do what they saw as this positive, celebratory thing for their daughter would be arrested, and their daughter would be protected from the terrible harm that FGM would cause them.

I really, really struggle to see how this case in this thread is any different. This parent has taken a celebratory view of transition, despite the actual dangers posed to her child, and I don't know why her plan to medically damage her physically healthy child is not being investigated by the authorities rather than lauded in public.

I agree Betty that's exactly how I would put it. But a child would just say " I'm not living as a girl I am a girl" etc, it's a very deep rooted issue for most kids who are trans.
And I don't think being gay comes into it for most kids and parents, this isn't usu ally about sexuality.

It would be interesting to know whether the clinic will actually prescribe puberty blockers in this case. The wording in the article is unclear; the child may actually just be on a list for a first appointment, given the reference to "4 weeks ago", and the idea of puberty blockers just something that the child/mother thinks will/should happen.

But a child would just say " I'm not living as a girl I am a girl" etc, it's a very deep rooted issue for most kids who are trans.

I don't think there's any such thing as a trans child, just as I don't think there's any such thing as a religious child - just a child of religious parents. (And I say this as a parent with an active religion.)

And I don't think being gay comes into it for most kids and parents, this isn't usu ally about sexuality.

Except that the available evidence says that most gender-nonconforming kids do turn out to be some variety of gay, not trans. Which is why many of us think that adults promoting the concept of trans children are promoting gay conversion therapy.

So hackmum, you seem to be saying that in your view, a parent being open to a referral that may, in time, lead to legally prescribed treatment for their child, is "child abuse, pure and simple." But you don't see that as a hostile position to take.

The whole notion of trans prior to puberty is ridiculous, utter nonsense

I just don’t believe in it at all

I think children are genuinely distressed, but it’s because Society polices gender roles so fiercely... I cannot believe that anyone would give credence to an explanation that says a child’s body is “wrong”

I guess I just don’t believe in trans

Interesting to see if that is deleted

But a child would just say " I'm not living as a girl I am a girl" etc
Isn’t it up to the parents to explain that the child can dress how they want, have their hair however they want, do whatever actives they want, etc but it’s not possible to be a girl.
If they decide when they are grown up that they want to take hormones, have surgery, etc then they can consider this themselves as at adult but it won’t ever be possible for them to change sex.

it's a very deep rooted issue for most kids who are trans. It isn’t though is it, as most kids who say they are trans (80%) decide they are not trans after all.

And I don't think being gay comes into it for most kids and parents, this isn't usu ally about sexuality Again, a large proportion of kids who say they are trans turn out to be gay.

• a billion

I remain wholly unconvinced that all or even a majority of adults were telling girls they were "tom boys" because they liked the things listed on here as proof of gender non conformity.

Geez Lass, many posters have said that this was their experience. It is entirely irrelevant whether you are 'convinced' whether this is true or not. Get over yourself

I am also a child of the 70s who was frequently told they were 'tomboyish' for wanting to wear trainers and overalls over pretty shoes and dresses. I preferred playing with Lego over Barbies, climbing trees and yes bike riding over playing with tea sets and ballet.

There is of course no reason that girls cannot enjoy bike riding or boys enjoy ballet... however, as many PP have stated was their experience, I remember being made to feel there was something wrong with it. My mother greatly desired me to do ballet to "improve my posture and develop a more ladylike way of walking" whereas bike riding made my hems muddy and my hair messy. Which irritated her, particularly when she feared my grandparent's disapproval over letting me 'run wild' like a boy [tomboy]

I don't pretend to know a lot about the issue, just my experience of a child I know. I would imagine a parent saying ' its not possible to be a girl ' would be really distressing to a child in this position , but personally agree with a lot of what has been said. Describing adults as promoting gay conversion therapy is going a bit far tbh. But yes I've heard lots of these kids turn out to be gay in the end. Also that autistic kids are more likely to present as ' trans'.

I remain wholly unconvinced that all or even a majority of adults were telling girls they were "tom boys" because they liked the things listed on here as proof of gender non conformity

Geez Lass, many posters have said that this was their experience. It is entirely irrelevant whether you are 'convinced' whether this is true or not. Get over yourself

I said nothing about the individual anecdotes were true. I was referring to a general , not on this thread or forum, world.

When the evidence of not conforming to gender stereotypes expected of a girl includes examples such as liking cycling, reading or being outdoors it strikes me as exaggeration. Really - these activities are not considered suitable for girls? By whom ? I'm making the assumption we are talking about the UK/Europe, not Afghanistan.