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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TRA response to Mumsnet new pro trans guidelines

343 replies

Southfields · 15/06/2018 10:27

As many on here predicted, they are STILL not satisfied. They believe the new guidelines from Justine are transphobic.

So, MN feminists don't like the new guidelines and nor do the TRA.

Where do we go from here?

By transwoman Natasha Kennedy:

Wednesday, 13 June 2018

False equivalence on stilts: Mumsnet's new censorship.

Today Mumsnet have come out with some badly transphobic guidelines which can only be regarded ill-considered at the most generous, profoundly transphobic at worst. They have said they are going to ban transphobia, terms like "TIM" ("Trans-identified male") and the like, although transphobes on Mumsnet are apparently already trying to find ways of producing new abusive and transphobic terms in order to get round this. How many hundreds of mods Mumsnet are going to employ to monitor this is unclear.

However for false equivalence they have decided ban the term "cis-". This is not only ridiculous, it is profoundly transphobic and reflects the institutional transphobia endemic at Mumsnet. "Cis-" as a prefix, they claim is offensive to "feminists", swallowing the rhetoric that "cis-" is somehow a form of abuse (in fact it is only a form of abuse if you are a transphobic bigot). Mumsnet are exposing their bias here and it isn't pretty.

The prefix "cis-" was first used in relation to gender by Dr Ernst Burchard, a cisgender doctor - and one of the earliest campaigners for gay rights - in "Lexikon des Gesamten Sexuallebens" published in German in 1914 and the term "cisgender" was first used by a cis male academic called Sigusch in 1998. It was created in order to provide a counterbalance to "trans-" so that people didn't have to say "non-trans" or "normal" when referring to someone who is cisgender. "Cis-" is effectively like the prefix "hetero-" in heterosexual. We don't talk about people who are not gay men or lesbians as "normal" people, so why should be have to do just that for trans people on Mumsnet?

In effect Mumsnet have censored trans people from using their discussion boards because we can no longer name people who are cisgender except in a way that Others us, pathologizes us or marks us out as somehow "abnormal" or not valid. In effect this is an Orwellian kind of censorship at a lexicon level (like "doubleplusgood") from a media platform that has complained noisily about Orwellian "censorship" when trans people called them out on the abuse we have been receiving on Mumsnet.

So it doesn't just reveal Mumsnet's institutional transphobia but their profound hypocrisy also. They cried foul to that other transphobic media platform, The Times, about being held to account for the transphobia in their forums yet have now banned some elements of the very behaviour they said trans people were threatening "censorship" by complaining about. In other words by their own standards of a few weeks ago they now are "censoring" themselves. This is not merely hypocritical, it is pathetic.

They are effectively excluding discussion by trans people and our allies by denying us legitimate terminology; banning a term that is, by the way, in the Oxford English Dictionary. Without being able to use a term like "cisgender" they are effectively making it impossible for trans people to engage in any meaningful debate in important areas. Their attempt to appear even-handed has ended up being oppressive and effectively taking the side of the oppressor. False equivalence is the name of the game, something trans people are very familiar with in the media, particularly broadcast media. And something the CEO of Mumsnet should be very familiar with since her partner is a senior commissioning editor in Channel 4, which recently produced an abusive and demeaning "debate" about my right to exist.

Mumsnet have got it badly wrong, they have demonstrated that

they are institutionally transphobic and in Desmond Tutu's terms are not even taking the side of the oppressor by being neutral, they are taking the side of the oppressor, period. Their motivation for this...? The only conclusion I can come up with is that they want to maintain their abusive transphobic user-base while avoiding complaints of abuse to advertisers; screenshots of transphobic abuse next to adverts make advertisers nervous. It is worth noting that trans people have been complaining about this kind of transphobic abuse on their site for literally years and they have arrogantly ignored us and brushed us off.

But the implications of Mumsnet's censorship go much further into dangerous territory...

As an academic the last place I would ever want go to discuss my work is of course Mumsnet, but now even if I wanted to I would be unable to since my most recent peer-reviewed publications, and some soon to come not only use terms with the prefix "cis-" ("Cultural cisgenderism" and "Cis-mythologization") throughout but they use them in the title. In effect my research is now banned from Mumsnet. No great loss from my point of view but should we should regard this as the modern equivalent of book-burning?

When the Nazis started to burn

books in Berlin University in 1933, among the first into the flames were those of Magnus Hirschfeld, a researcher into trans people. The comparison is too obvious not to make. Indeed I am not the only academic some of whose work it is now prohibited to discuss on Mumsnet; Gavi Ansara's and Peter Hegarty's award-winning research publication "Cisgenderism in psychology: pathologising and misgendering children from 1999 to 2008" (which originally coined the term "cisgenderism") is also banned under Mumsnet's new regime as are works by both transgender and cisgender academics including; Dr Ruth Pearce, Prof Dean Spade, Dr Julia Serano, Prof Rogers Brubaker, Prof Susan Stryker, Dr Jemma Tosh, Dr Diane Ehrensaft, Asst Prof Z Nicolazzo, Asst Prof Tobias Raun, Prof Sara Ahmed, Dr Meg-John Barker, CN Lester... I could go on and on...

To go from complaining to mainstream media about "censorship" to implementing a thoroughly Orwellian censorship regime of its own is quite a feat of hypocrisy even by Mumsnet's own pitiful standards, and something trans people are used to as pretty much the default setting of transphobes. However banning a term that is the equivalent of "heterosexual-" is not only bizarre but profoundly oppressive, the fact that it prevents the discussion of work by a wide range of academics is, in practical terms no great loss, Mumsnet is really just a cesspit of hate and ignorance. The symbolism of it however is very significant indeed.

uncommon-scents.blogspot.com/2018/06/false-equivalence-on-stilts-mumsnets.html

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 17/06/2018 13:35

“But if a book openly states that it discusses whether/suggests that certain historical women were trans, then it isn't a book I would wish to read.”

Frankly, I am so desperate for information that I am prepared to hold my nose. I’m not used to not being able to find out what I need to know from books, sweet old fashioned soul that I am.

PencilsInSpace · 17/06/2018 14:32

I just finished the Transsexual Empire and would recommend it for background knowledge, especially of how the medical side of things has developed. It was slightly depressing to realise that women have basically been fighting these same particular battles against gender, against appropriation and to retain our spaces since at least the early 70's.

Sheila Jeffreys' recent talk on the Yogyakarta Principles at WNTT was very informative too.

ErrolTheDragon · 17/06/2018 16:29

I'd guess Jeanne d'Arc would be less concerned about pronouns than being featured in a book 'Trans Britain'.

ArcheryAnnie · 17/06/2018 16:56

Does anyone feel that reading this feels like being in an abusive relationship with a man who is never happy and no matter what you do it will never be enough and always your fault?

Spot on.

loveyouradvice · 17/06/2018 17:14

I certainly wouldn’t have an objection to transfolk having a defined in law statutory period similar to sick pay/maternity pay to cover their recovery from medical transition, nor a shorter period (a couple of weeks similar to paternity leave) for a social transition.

Surely they already have the first as part of their sick leave entitlement - in the same way as if I have a hysterectomy, etc.... IT DOES NOT EQUATE TO BRINGING A CHILD INTO THIS WORLD......and I cannot see why they would need time of for social transition, since this is an ongoing process which one integrates into ones life - in the same way that we integrate other huge issues outside work....

Although they are not taking rights away from other people, it is a question of "parity" and being perceived to be just and fair.....

I feel very strongly that we have a bizarre situation where transpeople are declaring themselves the most disadvantaged and discriminated group and others are buying into this narrative.... I cannot agree. Having seen the pain and suffering caused by Domestic Violence, children with severe disabilities not being able to access the care they need and those in real poverty, I just do not understand why everyone is pandering to this movement - including the Labour Party, who really should be standing up for the most disadvantaged.

loveyouradvice · 17/06/2018 17:16

That came out more extreme than I meant... I have huge compassion for those with genuine gender dysphoria, who I understand are a tiny number of those now declared trans..... It is this larger group that I have a problem with, particularly since so many seem to be middle-class, educated people born as men i.e. privileged, but only now screaming about their lack of privilege from a very privileged position

Pratchet · 17/06/2018 17:33

I'm totally with loveyoursdvice. No need for maternity leave. I think the suggestion is part of the psychological training for society. Trying to reify this 'rebirth' narrative.

loveyouradvice · 17/06/2018 17:49

Love that Pratchet and totally agree re reification....

Though it is of course the MOTHERS who get MATERNITY LEAVE, not the babies..... I would have no problem with the MOTHERS getting compassionate leave to grieve the lose of a son or daughter....

Bespin · 17/06/2018 17:49

For those of you that think that this is even only the last 50 years and think that is as far back as it goes and that it's funny cos I said 100 I refer you to the picutre of the nazis's burning books in the 1930s you know the one it's quite famous. They are infact burning the books of the worlds leading centre for sexuality and gender and the work that they were doing was far ahead of the things that happened even upto the 1970s this was lost. Society as been at a level of exceptance before this modern time in the west and in other world cultures as worked these issues out centuries ago. And there are a number of concepts of gender within them. Again reading around this subject will help while I disagree with the transexual empire and encourage you to read whipping girl by Julia Serano as a responce to that book I would still encourage you to read it and anything else you can to give you a balanced view of the current issues.

The book trans Britain is not about historical characters neather is pressing matters, pressing matters will. Tell you how we got to the point we are now as it's written by the people who got us there.

Bespin · 17/06/2018 17:52

Also before you go Down the whole maternity thing I think. Again this is a misunderstanding people just want time off for medical purposes as some companies don't allow this as its is classed as elective like a boob job. We feel that gender dysphoria is not something you elect to have

BeyondSceptical · 17/06/2018 17:55

Argh, if only those six million Jewish people (and of course others) hadn't been gender scholars...

BertrandRussell · 17/06/2018 17:59

"They are infact burning the books of the worlds leading centre for sexuality and gender"
Well, among others! What was the name of the Centre, by the way?

Pratchet · 17/06/2018 18:02

It's not a misunderstanding. That's how it was described at a trans conference.

Pratchet · 17/06/2018 18:04

They could have called it 'sick'. They said maternity.

Bespin · 17/06/2018 18:21

Well if you want to be flipent about the mass extermination of a people then that's your choice but I think it looks crass. This occured in 1933 the institute was the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft and it supported the lgbt community in burlin

BoreOfWhabylon · 17/06/2018 18:33

Coming late to this, but I've just been finding out. a little more about Natacha/Mark (MNHQ this person switches between these two identities)

Here's Mark's page on Goldsmiths

Have a look at his publication history, especially the last item

www.gold.ac.uk/educational-studies/staff/hellen/

BertrandRussell · 17/06/2018 18:42

I have tried quickly to find out about the Institut für Sexualwissenschaft online. The problem I have come up against is that the Nazis exterminated a huge number of gay people and burned many books about homosexuality, but it's quite hard to find anything contemporary specifically about trans people. There seem to be plenty of modern rewriting- for example, the Wiki entry talks about "gender assigned at birth" which I assume was not an expression used in 1933. I know from literature that "sex changes" happened -often in North Africa. I do worry about attempts to appropriate gay as well as female culture. Gender non conforming people of both sexes and sexualities must not be re written as trans......

Bespin · 17/06/2018 18:51

Hi have a read of this for trans in Germany 1930s
www.quora.com/What-were-the-views-of-the-nazis-on-transgender-people-and-transsexual-people

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 18:53

Slightly off topic but if there was transition leave do you think it would reduce discrimination against womem being hired? On the basis that women get refused in case they need maternity leave, would this reduce if there was an equivalent make version? Basically making everyone high risk. I suspect the answer will be no as the number of transitioned will be too low for employers to consider it when hiring but it's a thought.

Sorry for the derail!

Bespin face to face I would use preferred pronouns and smile and not say I can tell. As others have said, this isnt about the individual but the class. But another reason for me is here I am discussing things where for clarity we need to be accurate. If I start saying "Sara tried to go in a women's shelter and she made people uncomfortable" no one will understand the problem. If I say "Dave now called Sara went in a women's shelter and he made people uncomfortable" it is a lot clearer. I am unlikely to be having this discussion in real life so what pronouns to use hasn't come up. If I do then I will be clear in whatever way I need to be.

Bespin · 17/06/2018 19:07

You can write that statement saying Sara a trans woman she made other women uncomfortable and that also gets the point across. You are. Trying to make don't you think

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:12

No, i d6ont. Thr important part in that was actuslly the pronoun, he. That was a single sentance so it was easy to understand. Do a paragraph or two and it gets very confusing.

Again, it is not being done to be unkor hurt anyone's feeling, it is being done for clarity. I find it very worrying that anyone thinks we should make arguments about anything less clear.

Still too close to #NoDebate for my taste.

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:14

And if someone didn't understand what a transwoman is (and I have seen a lot of comments from people saying they thought a transwoman was a female who was transitioning to male) they will not understand why women are uncomfortable. It is not clear to someone new to the debate and they should not be excluded.

MipMipMip · 17/06/2018 19:15

I'm sorry, the typos are winning today. Confused

Bespin · 17/06/2018 19:21

Well if people don't know what is ment by a trans woman then they can read some of the books I have already suggested and learn if they want too

pombear · 17/06/2018 19:39

It must be crap for the people who fall into this category, who desparately (or aggressively/sexually) want to be something else, but you can only signify you want to/think you're something else if you firstly highlight you're not the something you want to be.

Word salad.

But that's the only way you can signify.

Otherwise you just 'are' the thing you want to be. And then you can't shout at the other people who are the 'thing' you want to be for excluding you, because you aren't the 'thing' you want to be.

Eg:

You: I'm a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Erm, no, your're not.

You: I AM! You can't say I'm not a Dragon. You don't understand my experience, you have no idea whether I feel like/have always been a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Erm, OK, but you can't do all the things Dragons do, or the shit we experience cos we're dragons.

You: That's exclusionary, that's murderous, as I will be hurt because you say I'm not a Dragon.

Dragons (women): But nothing about your biolology demonstrates
you're a Dragon.

You: You don't understand, I'm a Dragon because I say I'm a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Er, OK.

You: Now I want everything that comes with being a Dragon (apart from the crap stuff) and you will recognise me as a Dragon.

Dragons (women): Er OK. So, this is some of the dragon stuff we do and have to talk about....

You: NO. THAT's NOT OK, COS WE CAN'T DO THAT/SAY THAT COS WE DON'T HAVE TRADITIONAL 'DRAGON' STUFF.

Dragons (women): Er, OK, so you may not be Dragons.

You: NO, THAT MEANS YOU MUST TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN DRAGONS COS .....US/ME/ME/MEEEEEE!

(it's Sunday, I'm pissed off, and this may not make sense!)

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