Transgender runners demand end to male and female categories

[BiologyIsReal]

Cannot bring up the online Daily Telegraph version but the print version today has an article about campaigners calling on Parkrun (which organises free weekly runs in public parks) to offer the option to not disclose gender. Most results are usually divided into male and female "first finishers" and published on line. Campaigners say this may put off non-binary runners.

So, if this happens there will likely be female "first finishers" who were not born female and born females will just have to STFU.

Parkrun tweeted a reply which thanks the campaigners for raising the problem and says they are working on updating their current from to be make the registration process more inclusive. The company refused to comment to the DT but a source believes that could have been a reference to the way the website operates, rather than the registration process.

Hmmm. Never mind. We are often told on various threads that self ID will not impact women aren't we? So it's all tickety boo really.
Except it isn't.

I don't understand how some runners not disclosing gender adversely affects women.

We are told it wont make any difference by people who are already prepared to ignore reality and lie through their teeth.

Do the objecters want there to be no categories at all? So a list of times and names only is published.l, no mention of sex at all? Or do they want the choice to not give their sex, and go on a third list of "undeclared" runners?

So a system that works for 99.9% of the rest of the population has to be scrapped??

I guess if people don't want to disclose their gender then they wouldn't be top in either the male or female category. The problem is when male runners claim to be female.

Because Gibberty Parkrun usually divides their first finishers into male and female. If they no longer do that and transwoman comes first they are depriving a (dare I say) real woman of that spot.

;

I am guessing that they will have male, female and not-disclosed. I see absolutely no disadvantage to women in adding a third category.

GibbertyFlibbert--I don't know much about Parkrun but it seems that there are 'first finishers' in men's and women's groups. If gender is not disclosed then men can run in women's groups and probably beat the women because no one will ask them if they belong in the women's group?

I don't know how many races you have marshalled, Gibberty - but I can tell you that the fastest female runner is always very far behind the fastest male runner and, actually, behind all the male runners who could be considered elite.

They don't identify themselves into that position, I assure you.

If they added a third category then no, there seems to be no issue at all. They just need to be clear about what they are going to do. The idea of having to disclose personal info at a run in a park seems daft to me so I hope they do the third category thing.

Would your partner 'not disclose', do you think, Gibberty? Would they be happy with that?

Don't know Gibberty. The article quotes a Mia Harris of LGBTQ rights as asking Parkrun "to recognise gender diversity to include all runners by offering more gender options or a "prefer not to say" button when signing up.

Gawd knows what sort of mess that will produce. But it would seem to only operate by removing all categories as far as it reads.

So there will be the list of male runners, a list of female runners, and an option not to appear in either list? How does anybody lose out?

Ofgs this has been discussed to death here. Tl;dr. Park run is for fun. You shouldn't care about competition. Yes you should some people like the motivation. No you shouldn't. Trans people shouldn't have to out themselves. But if they were obvious looking everyone would know anyway. Well have a discrete mark on the register. It doesn't matter anyway. Yes it does. No it doesn't.

Oh, hang on - it turns out that Gibberty is entirely right here. My apologies.

This is the 'third space' option. It's fine. And indeed, preferable.

Mea culpa.

There only need to be two categories. 'Open' and 'women'.
Men don't need a category of their own.
And anyone who can't truthfully declare they are a natal, biological, XX, non-testosterone taking female shouldn't be in the women's category.
Obviously intersex people or trans people of either sex or any gender flavour are unlikely to win in the Open category, but that's not women's problem.

Many of our (female) friends run regularly and have encouraged us to go along. There is absolutely no doubt that I, my partner and our friends would all expect her to register as a woman.

Depends on whether they want gender abolished full stop (bad for women) or whether they just want an option not to disclose gender but with male and female categories remaining (not bad for women).

Parkrun is a timed run, not a race.

There are plenty of events - including not-very-competitive ones - which have never positioned themselves to be inclusive, and runners who prefer that sort will easily find them.

After all, what other event wouid put NHS staff in pole position as part of the celebrations?

They could abolish both the separate listing for females, if people really are bothered (pity, women do 'better' - as far a such a concept applies - because all current unknowns are listed as male). But I hope they keep the age related %ages, because it's a nice bit of the 'news' to see - everyone over 70 gets a namecheck at ours.

Park run is for fun. You shouldn't care about competition.

Well some people do. Otherwise why have ranking? Stop telling people what they 'should' do.

Having said that, I don't see a problem with a third category who wouldn't be ranked as male or female. I would rather have that than unfair competition in the women's category.

"Obviously intersex people or trans people of either sex or any gender flavour are unlikely to win in the Open category, but that's not women's problem"

No-one 'wins' Parkrun - it's not a race.

Perhaps ceasing publication of the results page in its entirety wouid be the inevitable result - and totally in keeping with the inclusive ethos. I like seeing how my mates are doing on their individual Parkrun journeys (as regular tail, I have met some amazing people) and so wouid miss that aspect. But keeping Parkrun 's inclusive ethos matters much more

"Well some people do"

Yes - like some people swear in church. It's not what church is about, and it is the non-swearing whilst in church who define the ethos.

Parkrun is very clear what it's about. So of course it won't ban those who are competitive even when it's not a competition (bet they're the same people who wear spikes during Parents Race at a school,sports day)

For fuck's sake. You've all spent endless hours arguing that trans people should at most get 'third spaces'. And someone with a dog in the fight goes and does exactly that and you are still falling all over yourselves to disparage that.

Ranking encourages competition. I don't do Park Run, but I know people who do, and they certainly check out their place in the rankings and feel competitive about it. I'm sure almost all the runners who get a good place do that.

But I understand you have a vested interest in this, AuntieStella, and are unlikely to see the situation from anyone else's point of view.

...to offer the option to not disclose gender.

So, if this happens there will likely be female "first finishers" who were not born female...

If they don't disclose their gender they won't top the females list will they? Could you explain your contradiction OP?