Transgender runners demand end to male and female categories

[BiologyIsReal]

Cannot bring up the online Daily Telegraph version but the print version today has an article about campaigners calling on Parkrun (which organises free weekly runs in public parks) to offer the option to not disclose gender. Most results are usually divided into male and female "first finishers" and published on line. Campaigners say this may put off non-binary runners.

So, if this happens there will likely be female "first finishers" who were not born female and born females will just have to STFU.

Parkrun tweeted a reply which thanks the campaigners for raising the problem and says they are working on updating their current from to be make the registration process more inclusive. The company refused to comment to the DT but a source believes that could have been a reference to the way the website operates, rather than the registration process.

Hmmm. Never mind. We are often told on various threads that self ID will not impact women aren't we? So it's all tickety boo really.
Except it isn't.

where they join the group they identify but acknowledge their physical advantages by ticking the 'assisted' box

This was suggested on the previous threads and rejected out of hand - with quite a bit of indignation.

If Kate ever gets back to me over in Site Stuff, perhaps I'll be able to stop with the contortions!

I think they may have realised you can please all the people some of the time...

can you explain how anyone would be 'othered' by running in an open category?

If someone believes they are really a woman and have gone through medical (of some sort) and maybe even legal transition - to then imply that there is something dishonourable about them unless they put themselves in an 'other' category, is othering them.

You are telling someone, who sees themselves as part of a category of sex (or gender) that they shouldn't be categorising themselves as that. It's like saying they're not really in the male category and they're not really in the female category. Most people see themselves as male or female. So that is excluding them from that common human experience.

in this context, it's different because it's faster.

Yes I understand that and I can see how it could be frustrating particularly in a professional context if your living depended on it. You would feel displaced by someone who you feel has an unfair advantage. The International Olympic Committee have so far decided that there is no significant advantage with a certain threshold of treatment - larger body/ bone mass yes but the musculature then atrophies so it's not only weaker but has a heavier body to move.

Also the Equality act does state that trans women can compete with women but you can exclude if unfair advantage, or risk to health and safety. Presumably that would certainly apply to a trans person who had no hormonal treatment.

SupermatchGame The question was

can you explain how anyone would be 'othered' by running in an open category? Not an 'other' category

I'm sure it was LangCleg. Anything that acknowledges biology is seen as discriminatory now. It's part of the cult of the individual too, my choice first and foremost and hang everyone else.

It's not 'other', SMG, it's open.

I'd run in the same category as I'm not bothered by the competitive element.

On this model, transwomen are not excluded from a category which incorporates 'people who identify as women'. They are totally welcome in a category which is open to women.

They would however be excluded from a separate category which is defined as 'women who are female bodied, so don't run as fast as male bodied people, & want to measure their performance against other members of the female body group'.

I'm deeply distrustful of any biologically male person who identifies as a 'woman', is offered a chance to join a group which includes 'women', but would still insist on barging into a group of 'just biologically female women'.

At that point - it's not about inclusion. It's space invading.

You seem to be saying that it's not enough to include transwomen in a space which is open to women; it's only enough if there are NO spaces just for women.

I don't think a thoughtful & respectful transwoman would take that view.

Hahha nailed it

I think a third space on a park run would be a great idea. But this is just a precursor tobabiludhingcsex categories. It wouldn't be enough. Within five minutes of being given a third spaces, they'll say they feel othered. This is just attrition.

Third category that stays a third category would be ok.

lol I didn't even read to the end of the thread and I missed the 'othering'

Blimey we know what they're going to say, we could just write the whole script argument ourselves

My spelling mistakes are spectacular

It's relentlessly tiresome.

OK, here's an option where you get to do stuff with women, & if you like, you can call yourself a woman.

' but there'll be some other women there doing the exact same stuff & not letting me join in? Bunch of othering bastards'

Yes, but you can still do this stuff as part of a group which includes women. Some of us will happily join you.

'But I want to be in THAT group. The one with the women who don't want to do stuff with me.'

It's such utter bollocks.

They can jog on....

Purple

That is bang on

Things are getting beyond ridiculous now!

You know I have thought about this a lot how trans could be included.

It’s great we are thinking about this.

But, I also want to flag up this. Why are we, women, having to even think about this and try and find solutions.

Why has this been dumped on us. I don’t see the trans community or men engaged and trying to find ways to work this out. Please let me know if I’m wrong about that.

Don’t we have enough to be dealing with, it feels like let’s just dump this mess on women. They are compassionate and submissive they will take it or try and be nice and work it out.

Any thoughts???

I am not saying I won’t continue to mull it over and think about ways to include trans without it decimating Women’s sport.

However how about the young women being trafficked and abused, who is going to speak for them. Or women who have been so disadvantaged by the welfare changes. Etc etc if I made a list this would be a very long post.

If someone sees themselves
if someone believes they are

This might come as a shock SMG but what people think about themselves is not the most important thing on the planet and not more important than everybody else. Why would it be? Most people grow out of thinking that it is by the time they start school.

Trans woman currently run in the female timed list.

FWR say they shouldn't run in the female timed list.

Some trans women say they don't want to run in the female timed list.

FWR are outraged at trans women not running in the female time list.

Trans women just want to run round a park. FWR want them to not exist. I'd like a category away from the male and female lists to run in. I won't be doing it yet as I'm only half way through the C25K programme, but when I get there my times will be so slow it'll be embarrassing. I would just want to know my time so I can't beat it, not to find out I'm 150th out of 150.

Reported

Male, female and 'open' categories sounds like the sensible option. Everyone gets to run, and the women get a chance to compete fairly. Because of the generally lower take up of sports by women, this matters. Girls need to be able to see women winning and being celebrated for it.

It would be a pity if this sort of pragmatic solution is rejected by some trans people as 'othering' (especially if that nixes it for those who would find it acceptable). Sport is one of the cases where trans people simply are physically 'other' from their preferred gender. Women do not run less fast than men because of 'ladybrain'.

@goldenbug
Trans woman currently run in the female timed list. FWR say they shouldn't run in the female timed list.

Yes, this appears to be consensus.

Some trans women say they don't want to run in the female timed list. FWR are outraged at trans women not running in the female time list.

If you look upthread, a lot of FWR are stating that they would be happy for transwomen to run in the open category. So you are wrong there.

FWR want them to not exist.

Aha, I see why you ignore the posters supporting the open category: so you can spin that lie again. Even though those of us at WPUK Newcastle welcomed SevenHex and continue to welcome and support Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, etc.