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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Transgender runners demand end to male and female categories

74 replies

BiologyIsReal · 14/06/2018 21:33

Cannot bring up the online Daily Telegraph version but the print version today has an article about campaigners calling on Parkrun (which organises free weekly runs in public parks) to offer the option to not disclose gender. Most results are usually divided into male and female "first finishers" and published on line. Campaigners say this may put off non-binary runners.

So, if this happens there will likely be female "first finishers" who were not born female and born females will just have to STFU.

Parkrun tweeted a reply which thanks the campaigners for raising the problem and says they are working on updating their current from to be make the registration process more inclusive. The company refused to comment to the DT but a source believes that could have been a reference to the way the website operates, rather than the registration process.

Hmmm. Never mind. We are often told on various threads that self ID will not impact women aren't we? So it's all tickety boo really.
Except it isn't.

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 14/06/2018 22:09

I like comparing my time against other females in my age group afterwards, but I do find it most helpful to simply compare my own times. I'd find it hard to get riled up about this issue, if it was important to other participants tbh.

PurpleCrowbar · 14/06/2018 22:12

Third 'undisclosed' option would be fine, I think.

Or just call it 'open'.

But keep the women's section for women (for avoidance of doubt, I'm using 'women' to refer to people who were born female & have female anatomy), as they aren't going to be running as fast as people with male biology, because biology, & it would allow them to track performance against their physiological peers.

This opinion is probably deletable now, right?

NotMeOhNo · 14/06/2018 22:14

I'd like to compare my performance to other women. I wouldn't find it useful to not know that other women on the list were actually including men. I'd be happy with those who opt out to have their own ranking list.

SupermatchGame · 14/06/2018 22:17

But keep the women's section for women (for avoidance of doubt, I'm using 'women' to refer to people who were born female & have female anatomy),

But the legal category 'woman' includes those that have transitioned to 'woman'. So are you proposing to reform the law? How and when? Who is actually likely to do that?

AuntieStella · 14/06/2018 22:21

I have no interest in Parkrun as an organisation.

And you will note I have made suggestions on how alterations could be made, within existing Parkrun systems.

You do not have to support my suggestions on how alterations could be made. But I wouid rather you did not make insinuations of unfair bias, simply because I enjoy an inclusive running event.

Have you posted a link to this thread on any of the many Parkrun threads on MN? To see what MN Parkrunners think, and what further suggestions they might have? Because if the goal here is to persuade Parkrun to do something different to its current stated aims, then isn't it better to work with - rather than assume they're all biased?

multivac · 14/06/2018 22:29

This is a total red herring.

NotTerfNorCis · 14/06/2018 22:31

AuntieStella as you're far more involved in the Park Run than I am, it might be best for you to link in other MN Park Runners.

Iceweasel · 14/06/2018 22:31

Either a third space option or 'open' and 'female' would be ideal I think. Would have to run on an honour system only and trust that people would be honest and not choose to take unfair advantage.

walnutwood · 14/06/2018 22:33

A poster on here finished behind a man and had a thread about it as it affected her statistics.

PurpleCrowbar · 14/06/2018 22:33

Oh sure, SMG. I accept that someone who is biologically male has 'transitioned' could probably legally rock up & insist on running in the category for women.

I don't agree that it's ok for that to be the situation, but we are where we currently are.

I'm saying that providing an open/undisclosed category would mean that that runner could enjoy the event (& competing with other runners if that's important to them), whilst avoiding causing buggerance to runners who are biologically female & want to measure their performance against their peers.

That person could choose to run in the open category, or they could choose to run in the 'women' category.

One of these choices would be more honest & more sporting than the other, in my opinion.

4GreenApples · 14/06/2018 22:55

I am guessing that they will have male, female and not-disclosed. I see absolutely no disadvantage to women in adding a third category.

Agree, as long as not-disclosed is an additional option rather than replacing men/women, I’m not seeing a problem with it.

And surely Parkrun must operate on a self-ID basis anyway, given that it’s not (officially, anyway) a competitive race? They’re hardly going to be checking people’s biological sex or legal gender matches what’s on the registration form when it’s supposed to be just about taking part.

Newsofas · 14/06/2018 23:02

Let’s be clear here. If a man identifies as a woman they will tick the female box on the gender list. They will not tick the other box as they are not other they are female. So yes females who were born as the male sex will run in the female category.

I’m probably going to get banned now for using the wrong words.

MrsTerryPratchett · 14/06/2018 23:12

I think if the website has only two options, the idea of the PP that this could be 'female' and 'other' is awesome.

Goldenbug · 14/06/2018 23:16

Let's be clear here. You think that them not wanting to have to pick Male or Female means that they all want to pick female? They want the 3rd option in order to not pick it?

megletthesecond · 14/06/2018 23:16

For me parkrun isn't for fun. It's the only chance I get to be competitive. I want to know what number female finisher I am. I certainly don't want male finishers to sneak in above me.

UrsulaPandress · 14/06/2018 23:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

SupermatchGame · 14/06/2018 23:20

& want to measure their performance against their peers.

Could they not still do that even if there was the occasional trans woman running? Just ignore the result of the trans woman and compare themselves to the non trans women?

Would that not be better than potentially excluding someone or othering them? You get to the same point in the end.

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 23:22

We had two big, angry threads about Park Run a couple of months ago, including one transgender participant [of the subset of transgender people we don't currently have an acceptable collective noun for] who saw no problem in running in the female category.

The threads were very combative.

IIRC, Park Run has an "assisted" option, which runners can use if, for example, they are on drug regimes (eg steroids for asthma) that could give them an unfair advantage.

IIRC again, Park Run makes a big deal of participants being able to check their performance against the other runners comparable to them by age and sex (but I forget if they call sex gender or not) by sending out emails with all the data.

annandale · 14/06/2018 23:23

This is why I'm not a third space fan... where there is sex division, keep sex division. The point of Parkrun as opposed to just going for a run is that it's timed.

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 23:28

including one transgender participant [of the subset of transgender people we don't currently have an acceptable collective noun for] who saw no problem in running in the female category

Sorry, not clear - transgender participant in Park Run as well as in the thread.

MrsTerryPratchett · 14/06/2018 23:32

[of the subset of transgender people we don't currently have an acceptable collective noun for]

It really has all got a bit Judean People's Front.

PurpleCrowbar · 14/06/2018 23:35

SMG - can you explain how anyone would be 'othered' by running in an open category?

Which is, by its very nature, open to all runners?

There will be runners in that category who are women. There will be other runners who are men. There will be other runners who ate transmen. There will other runners who are transwomen. All of them can happily run together.

A transwoman could decide to eschew that category - which is a category open to women, so if it's important to them to run in a category for women, there you go - & run in the category reserved for just women, as in people who have female physiology.

But that would be a selfish & unsporting choice, given their male body is different - in this context, it's different because it's faster.

Iceweasel · 14/06/2018 23:35

Newsofas Then make it a sex list not a gender list.

If they had an open option couldn't they make it clear that this option is open to all (male, female, intersex, of any gender) but that the female option was for the people of the female sex only? They could have a male sex option as well but I don't think it would be necessary. Have no options for gender.

Ihuntmonsters · 14/06/2018 23:42

How would that be possible SMG? The option is to sign up in the men's class or the woman's class. If a man signed up as a woman there is no way to be able to exclude those results. This is regardless of adding a further category. Non binary people have either male or female bodies regardless as to which box they tick. Identity is irrelevant to physical exercise and/or sporting competition so questions about 'gender' are not required and if they cause some people to be unhappy the simplest thing to do would be to remove them, and ask instead about sex. That would please lots of feminists too, but well who cares about what feminists feel about anything at the moment?

The only nuanced approach would be to group by sex and to ask those who cannot bring themselves to acknowledge their sex correctly to accept a compromise where they join the group they identify but acknowledge their physical advantages by ticking the 'assisted' box.

LangCleg · 14/06/2018 23:43

It really has all got a bit Judean People's Front.

If Kate ever gets back to me over in Site Stuff, perhaps I'll be able to stop with the contortions!