Taking it out on your body - exploring possible roots

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

This post emerges from a conversation started on another thread about the possible links between various conditions involving hurting one’s body, that I have called collectively “taking it out on your body”.

I thought a useful backdrop to this discussion is this:

The essence of radical feminism is the highlighting of the subjugation and marginalisation of women, by frequently consigning them to roles defined by men. This can mirror enslavement. This socialisation of women starts very early - I would contend in utero. It can certainly start early in the family and is fostered at societal and cultural levels and now is very heavily fuelled by social media.

These remarks are taken from Sheila Jeffreys at the recent Inconvenient Women WNTT event:

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights.
..

The idea of gender arises from the oppression of women and cannot exist without it. Gender comprises behaviour and appearance norms required of men and women. Femininity is one half of gender and is the enforced behaviour of the oppressed, that is women. It includes humiliating clothing norms such as high heels, decoration, body exposure, body covering as well as the restriction of body movement, for example not taking up much space and so on.

It is based on the notion that women’s brains are somehow different from those of men, in ways that make them suited to such behaviour, make them rightfully subordinate and suited for doing the housework

The sparking comment on the other thread was this one:

user1499173618 Thu 14-Jun-18 08:43:48
BowlofBabelFish - the common thread between anorexia, bulimia, self-harm, trichotillomania, nail biting, gender dysphori (and, perhaps,tattooing, piercing) etc is deep-seated failure of recognition and denial of emotions. Human emotions are very real things but the gaslighting by society at large of human need and emotion causes immense confusion that results in people turning on themselves when they are not equipped to deal with the onslaught from the world at large.

To which I responded:

Emotional and psychological abuse targeting women, at family and societal level and now pervasive on SM, denies, discounts and coerces women away from their rightful autonomy and freedom of thought and being. This abuse can be somaticised by many women into blaming themselves, as the only tolerable, psychological alternative at an early age. This can lead to various manifestations of self harm and/ or taking it out on one's body. That is not women's fault but the environment they were raised in, where abuse is normalised and they are scapegoated.

From that point it was decided to start a separate thread.

qumquat
I feel you, it's one of the reasons I don't feel "normal". People say stuff like that and I hold onto it for years. I would love to be at a point where I could just think "what an arse" and ignore it.

Just read this on Twitter and thought it was relevant. I love Jessica Eaton.

mobile.twitter.com/Jessicae13Eaton/status/1009195237837852673

Good thread from JE, I also love her!

I started self harming a few months after I dissociated from anger after that beating IIRC.

This is one of the important threads that is being pushed off the front page by the midnight misogynists. They start a bunch of threads that have no purpose but to drive Feminist conversations off the front page.

It's so annoying isn't it bewilderness
I have wondered about using a different board (e.g. feminist theory) for this kind if convo and leaving this one for trans stuff

The level of informed help available is shockingly low - for example, I recently discovered where I am, that DV is not a mandatory subject on psychology and /or medical degrees and that a shockingly large number of psychiatrists did not have any training in recognising DFV dynamics.

In addition, on medical degrees, something like a couple of hours is spent on Cluster B personality disorders, and so again there is little expertise in the field of those aggressive types (NPDs etc) - often undiagnosed - who are the male abusers, in different guises.

In addition, women are pathologised and still locked up for displaying CPTSD symptoms that are the result of male violence acted out on them, often from young ages. The abuser is disappeared in that action.

It's no surprise to me that the vast majority of referrals to the Tavistock are for young girls who have body hatred, that manifests in various ways. That body hatred is being encouraged on social media to be viewed as being uncomfortable in one's body - that is true, trauma makes being in one's body in life a challenging and confronting experience - on a minute by minute, hour and daily basis. This is little understood. It's a normal response if one's development has been horrendously disrupted plus being scapegoated by the abuser and the system(s) that support them.

This doesn't mean that the explanation the young girls are being encouraged on social media to believe is actually correct - but it takes time and resources to work through that individually. Far easier to prescribe drugs and surgery which may well just be dealing with the symptoms and not the root cause.

QuentinSummers

That's a possibility to move it - it's a shame if people don't know it's there though - though presumably that can be highlighted every so often by a post and signpost. Let's see what the consensus is...

The Chat board has become the default board for all feminism discussions. I certainly never think to check the other boards.

However, it would be a real shame for this discussion to get lost so I’m happy for a move there. Probably makes sense to move more discussions to avoid the persistent derailers and trolls.

I have wondered about using a different board (e.g. feminist theory) for this kind if convo and leaving this one for trans stuff

I am not willing to give up one inch.
If there are enough transgender advocates who are also MN member then MNHQ can create a board for them to talk about themselves.

I agree with bewilderness personally. I’m going to sit on the fence though and say I don’t mind where this thread is because I know it has sensitive info on it and is encouraging people to post more sensitive info so fine if the majority feel more comfortable moving it.

One thing though - you may notice even the usually activist ploppers have stayed away from here so far.

I'm comfortable over sharing here, in view of all potential wankbadgers, but understand if others are not :)

There was a recommendation to watch ‘nanette’ on Netflix on here the other day. It’s a show by Hannah Gadsby who has forged a comedy career out of being ‘that lesbian’. It is a mix of comedy with some profoundly passionate politics (and some art history) and it reminded me of this thread TBH. It felt like giving this thread a stage TBH via Hannah.

I would recommend it but also caution that it may bring up feelings of your own! I found the political elements very powerful and the comedy aspects very clever.

Great minds think alike Offred - I too was going to mention Hannah Gadsby's Nanette on here as I felt a resonance with this thread and women's' experience on here, like mine. I was laughing then crying then crying and next day crying - but good crying. Healing crying. And I have had a big shift I think (it's work in progress).

I won't cross post as I commented on the Hannah thread - but I am one of those strong rebuilt women she refers to. The somatization of trauma and abuse is real and visceral and presents differently in different folks. It can feel crazy but it doesn't mean I am crazy. But it is all about the body. It's roots are the same - invariably abuse in girls and women.

Emotional distress is as painful as physical pain - something that gets overlooked. Women commit suicide to escape the emotional pain.

The impact of serious PTSD is analogous to paraplegia. Yes, that's right - but can you find anyone who will acknowledge how serious this shit is. No wonder women, cut, self-medicate with drugs, alcohol, sex, spending - why would they not? They are not flawed but have been floored - by male violence. Auto-immune diseases are often the body's way of signalling enough - I can't bear this suffering and invalidation anymore.
No wonder young girls are ripe for grooming by Big Pharm and they who cannot be named cult, into believing that body distress is caused by being in the wrong body. Many times I have asked "Beam me up Scotty!!). But to no avail - I couldn't change bodies.

The pain of reality and the trauma is usually too much for any one individual to bear - that's the truth. And we are isolated and made to bear it alone in the main - we are not allowed to be held and looked after whilst we come through it and heal collectively. We are denied women's healing, holding and lived experience and are given Hobson's Choice, a male prognosis and treatment as they see fit for women.

We are pathologised, labelled and condemned as too sensitive, ill, unstable, etc It's all a bloody big DARVO to deflect away from the elephant in the room, male violence. And that is what Hannah nails and names.

It can be healed, slowly and mindfully. I have come through a lifelong war zone - I have healed some serious stuff - one example is I nearly drowned as a kid and was blamed for it!! Under severe stress, my body reproduces the same symptoms I experienced when pulled out of the river - still today, many, many years later, I'll be retching and coughing up water in my living room. Go figure.. It's like my body has its own record of events, and when safe enough, starts to release them (frequently later in life, when we can tolerate the pain and holding the distress). Imagine that with a rape memory, or childhood sexual abuse. Imagine all the times the body has been battered and the natural rage locked down.

I am not mad but re-experiencing, in that example, a life-threatening event that was compounded by severe emotional abuse. I've had painful body injuries and pain that have gone after an hours body treatment - manifesting as real and present day, and with real pain, but they were trauma memories and disappeared after the right bodywork. But appropriate treatment is withheld, limited or dismissed mostly and replaced by misinformed and unhelpful quick "fixes" or long-term drugs - to dampen down and deny the body's distress.

Trauma memories don't come back as a whole memory, but fragments - a smell, a sensation, a touch, a feeling - but not anchored in any coherent narrative. The narrative emerges slowly, bit by bit.

Never doubt your experiences or recollections or feelings. Trust your body - it doesn't lie but can get a little confused between time zones :)

woman
Thanks for that post

Thx Quentin the acknowledgement and flowers are welcome and reassuring

Yy woman.

I have two auto immune diseases.

Hannah really does nail it.

It is interesting you mention war zones.

I had a realisation (Van Der Kolk never gets further than noting different responses to treatment) after reading the body keeps the score that actually obviously there is a difference between men traumatised by war and women traumatised by men. Obviously men come home from war, women (in the main) go home to men....

So much of the literature re recovery makes a point of needing to get to a place of safety in order to effectively recover, women do not have that place of safety. We have pockets of special places that we go to from our homes, from our lives which are lived with men, and we return to those homes when we leave.

‘Why are segregated spaces so important?!’ They cry.... switch on your bloody brain...

And I fucking identify as tired too.

Do people living in war zones need therapy and medication to learn how to think differently about their homes, families and friends being blown up or do they just need people to stop fucking blowing people and places up with fucking bombs first?

from me too woman. It is only recently in my not far off 50 years that I have understood all this. I always thought "flashbacks" were visual things rather than feeling "unreasonably" freaked by something, I was made to feel I was weird and standoffish and a control freak for not wanting to do something that was apparently normal and easy for other people, or having to get drunk to bear it. You are absolutely right there are not many places we can go to heal. I have mainly done it alone, no one really knows my full story.

When I first got out of my abusive situation I couldn't bear to be near men at all. If one sat next to me on the bus I'd have to get up and move. My body is hypervigilent around men. I had to be. That's why I can't be in any space where I'm vulnerable with one, my fight or flight reaction would be triggered. I cannot identify out of this, it's deeply imprinted in my neural pathways and much as I'd like support to not react so much there's nothing there.

Offred
I have two auto immune diseases. - that really sucks and is so unfair - what a burden to carry. I am so sorry you have to live with that

So much of the literature re recovery makes a point of needing to get to a place of safety in order to effectively recover, women do not have that place of safety. We have pockets of special places that we go to from our homes, from our lives which are lived with men, and we return to those homes when we leave. ‘Why are segregated spaces so important?!’ They cry.... switch on your bloody brain...

I really observe that women are punished over and over again by their needs being ignored and that punishing makes us iller and causes real harm. This is not just accidental nor a bad system- it's designed to keep women in their place - at the bottom of the heap with no help to help them get back on their feet.

And I fucking identify as tired too.

Me too - exhausted at trying to get back up. But where's the help and advocacy? - people talk about having time on their hands but where is it? Celebrity and food culture have a lot to answer for. Self care is everything.

do they just need people to stop fucking blowing people and places up with fucking bombs first?

Yep male violence, in different forms, is the root problem - but will the men embrace that - the silence is deafening.

Thanks SummerKelly

I have mainly done it alone, no one really knows my full story. - same here. Different therapists and people know fragments. Stay in touch - I'm setting up an environment where women's stories can be heard and acknowledged - sometime soon

My body is hypervigilent around men. I had to be. That's why I can't be in any space where I'm vulnerable with one, my fight or flight reaction would be triggered. I cannot identify out of this, it's deeply imprinted in my neural pathways and much as I'd like support to not react so much there's nothing there.

Yes, the hypervigilance is not a lifestyle choice nor a whim nor something that be turned on and off - but a survival mechanism that needs to be honoured by female only environments. It can only be healed by being safe and that means no male bodies.

That would be good woman. Most of my friends see me as sorted and organised etc., which I am, but I still carry around the scars. It does make me feel apart a lot of the time because when I've tried to talk to people without this experience they just don't get it, and sometimes with people who have had that experience it feels to difficult to "go there" when your relationship is colleague or other school mum or other acquaintance as it's difficult to unearth without feeling emotional and vulnerable. It's made me angry again reading this thread at all the shit women who've been abused go through that compounds the abuse.

It's made me angry again reading this thread at all the shit women who've been abused go through that compounds the abuse.

YY - I have to take this thread slowly as I am able, as I too am beyond angry at the re-victimisation. It's shocking and confronting.

I too have found I can't talk to people who don't get it. And few do. I feel we are the canaries sounding the early warning. And we have so much wisdom - ours is a sacred journey of fire - and we have survived as the Phoenix does. Rising from the ashes. We have so much to offer by way of lived experience and what works and what doesn't - and yet are mostly consigned by services as the other - the problem. It's a lonely path and we are strong women to have walked it and come through the Valley of Death alive if not uninjured.

I’ve found actually that getting myself to a place where I can (and do) talk to people who ‘don’t get it’ and carry on talking to people about it even when they don’t get it and accepting the feelings that come with that is helpful TBH.

I have however been talking to people who ‘don’t get it’ all my life really. I’ve always been a person people ‘don’t get’ and had a life people ‘don’t get’ so it’s not really something I can avoid.

It is wearing though even though I no longer really care deeply whether people ‘get it’ when I speak or not.

I think I find it helpful because I’m making it real and if it is just in my head it starts to feel not real.

I liked hannah’s thing about help to take care of her story. It’s how I feel.

"and we have survived as the Phoenix does. Rising from the ashes"

♥️

I liked hannah’s thing about help to take care of her story. It’s how I feel.

Yes that's what I mean by people getting it - if I tell people who don't get it, it feels like I'm not taking care of my story or me. Because they invariably invalidate me and my story- so I don't talk about it now unless I know people can honour and hold it. .