Taking it out on your body - exploring possible roots

[womanformallyknownaswoman]

This post emerges from a conversation started on another thread about the possible links between various conditions involving hurting one’s body, that I have called collectively “taking it out on your body”.

I thought a useful backdrop to this discussion is this:

The essence of radical feminism is the highlighting of the subjugation and marginalisation of women, by frequently consigning them to roles defined by men. This can mirror enslavement. This socialisation of women starts very early - I would contend in utero. It can certainly start early in the family and is fostered at societal and cultural levels and now is very heavily fuelled by social media.

These remarks are taken from Sheila Jeffreys at the recent Inconvenient Women WNTT event:

It is on the basis of sex that women are oppressed and on that basis that women rights are founded. It is in international law that sex is the basis of the granting of women’s rights.
..

The idea of gender arises from the oppression of women and cannot exist without it. Gender comprises behaviour and appearance norms required of men and women. Femininity is one half of gender and is the enforced behaviour of the oppressed, that is women. It includes humiliating clothing norms such as high heels, decoration, body exposure, body covering as well as the restriction of body movement, for example not taking up much space and so on.

It is based on the notion that women’s brains are somehow different from those of men, in ways that make them suited to such behaviour, make them rightfully subordinate and suited for doing the housework

The sparking comment on the other thread was this one:

user1499173618 Thu 14-Jun-18 08:43:48
BowlofBabelFish - the common thread between anorexia, bulimia, self-harm, trichotillomania, nail biting, gender dysphori (and, perhaps,tattooing, piercing) etc is deep-seated failure of recognition and denial of emotions. Human emotions are very real things but the gaslighting by society at large of human need and emotion causes immense confusion that results in people turning on themselves when they are not equipped to deal with the onslaught from the world at large.

To which I responded:

Emotional and psychological abuse targeting women, at family and societal level and now pervasive on SM, denies, discounts and coerces women away from their rightful autonomy and freedom of thought and being. This abuse can be somaticised by many women into blaming themselves, as the only tolerable, psychological alternative at an early age. This can lead to various manifestations of self harm and/ or taking it out on one's body. That is not women's fault but the environment they were raised in, where abuse is normalised and they are scapegoated.

From that point it was decided to start a separate thread.

I couldn't agree more Offred

What struck me reading the thread is how talking about these things is still pretty taboo. If we talked about them wed realise how common they were and gain strength from that. It's divide and conquer. We are encouraged to think we are crazy individuals rather than that society is sick.

Absolutely - the problem with much therapy is it doesn't acknowledge the role of the systemic use and abuse of women by men, in different guises, and how the welfare systems take over where the abuser left off. It's easier to make individual women feel they're responsible for what happened to them - for the harm caused by others and the devastating effect, often lifelong. Our struggles are pathologised rather than the elephant in the room being named - that women's struggles are not caused by them but the result of male violence, often early in their life.

Far easier to divide and conquer, as the welfare systems do, enabled by abusive men in power, in politics and the media, who love to blame male violence upon women - she caused it, she asked for it, she didn't say no, she didn't avoid it, she's a bludger and leaner not a lifter, she chose to leave, she close badly blah blah

Not sure if the people who lap up these kind of things have just had very easy lives

I hate Brene Browns' work - she and Cheryl Sandberg have no idea - they think suffering is the same as they experience from losing a job, or a partner unexpectedly - life events. They have no idea of the internal distress and the disruption caused to women's lives by violence. The failure to thrive and cope is not women's fault - it can't be wished away - it's the result of serious developmental injuries from someone else's pathological behaviour and violence

A particular bugbear of mine at the moment is the kind of pop psychology meme that women often share on SM. The other night a friend shared 'I will make you happy, but first I will make you strong. Love from Life.' which gave me the total rage. Tell that to someone who suffered childhood abuse or a child in Syria today. Suffering does not make you strong. Quite the reverse.

I hate this too. Whenever anyone posts what doesn't kill you makes you stronger type shit I like to reply with not according to peer reviewed neuroscience research. I'm a bundle of fun!

Or the other favourite WFKAW - yeah but that happened a long time ago, aren't you over it now?

I think though that there are some women's centres who are making the links. Trouble is old fashioned campaigning by charities is scarce because of threats to funding.

I had to really sit on my hands to avoid saying something similar wearegerbils! I may use your response next time it comes up!

As a side note, I read a book about the rise and fall of the Victorian servant years ago. One part of it towards the end has always stayed with me.

Apparently, there was a point in the 50s with the advance of technology where it looked as though housework would be industrialised, particularly laundry work. Huge industrial laundries were being set up and domestic laundry was becoming a commercial venture with housewives dropping off the dirty household's clothes and picking them up ironed.

Then the appliance manufacturers realised they would make more profit by selling small domestic units for the home.

And that was the thing that turned laundry into unpaid and undervalued women's domestic work. Prior to that, paying for laundry to be done had been common throughout history, whether you employed a charwoman, a laundress etc. It was understood to be work of value. Even working class women that couldn't afford someone to do the work were in a climate where it was recognised to be "work".

But that change from the production of commercial laundry units to private domestic washing machines for greater profit meant that now laundry isn't seen as work at all.

So much of what women do domestically is not seen as work, but here's the thing: it used to be seen that way. And there was this point where it was looking like it was all going to be commercialised.

Can you imagine that? A culture where washing is something to be dropped off dirty and picked up clean. And it's cheaper to do that than to do it yourself? Where housecleaning is commercialised and reasonably priced? Why is it that people are prepared to pay for a window cleaner but baulk at someone to vac and wash their floors?

It's those bloody small domestic appliances that started in the 50s. They've entrapped us; it's a gaslighting on an enormous scale: "here's this stuff you have to do that isn't work, that you won't get paid for, and has no value but is expected of you and will eat lots of time."

Is it any wonder that women can't cope? But we are socialised to think this set up is normal. We are socialised to gas light ourselves.

i'm only mid-way through reading this thread but i'd like to say a massive thankyou to everyone posting. a lot is resonating for me.

That's really interesting, former

Brilliant post former
This thread is very thought provoking.
I feel like I'm sort of squinting at my life through my fingers at the moment because so much of it hurts. This thread is helping me feel less alone. Thank you all

That explains how I feel atm so well, Quentin

I'm a little worried that I'm just one little push away from full on breakdown and a straight jacket 😕

you aren't.
My counsellor told me the other day that although I feel powerless I must be strong to withstand what I have in life. It kind of helped.
Pm me if you like, happy to chat x

I was pondering this thread earlier. It struck me that many of you have touched on experiences with abusive family members or others who had not respected your boundaries or right to self-determine, but also that you were often vocal on the trans threads. There are a lot of posters on MN who have been in abusive relationships, whether familial or intimate, and are able to spot problematic behaviours and expectations in others very quickly. I wonder if that’s why we draw such ire in FWR - we are not easily manipulated and we are not afraid to point out problematic behaviour when we see it.

so much resonates on this thread. Absolutely sick to death of just put on a happy face and smile through the pain bullshit that’s taking over everywhere. How convenient that the vast majority of women’s problems are because they’re not confident enough or positive enough or grateful enough.

what i find interesting is the common language of women's expression of not coping - the turning inwards - even if the root causes might be quite distinct.

i've suffered no abuse or neglect in my life, but i am (it turns out) autistic. i've worked my way through pretty much every not coping mechanism mentioned on the thread. that i never committed suicide is i guess i sideswipe bonus of my female socialisation. having witnessed the impact of parental suicide within my family, as soon as my eldest was born i guess i surrendered any semblance of a say in that respect. the only way out was always through.

thanks for this thread.

as an aside, i think it can be a very common experience for autistic women to be scared/wary of other women, particularly other women in groups. because some of our formative experiences of misunderstanding and rejection have come from not being a "good enough" girl/woman, not conforming to/even seeing the subtleties of femininity. i'm glad that pp are able to access and thrive in "women only" physical spaces, for some of us those safe spaces only really exist online.

Such an interesting thread. Thank you. I have experienced trauma throughout my life, and have had to live with much that can't be changed. And I recognise so much of my own past in the comments here. to all

Bloody gaslighting headfuck on all sides, rant rant rant

boatyardblues - I agree, once one has examined and analysed the causes of one’s own trauma, it becomes much easier to identify problematic behaviours in third party scenarios.

iwish that's interesting re parental suicide. When I first found out I was pregnant the brief euphoria was followed by terrible panic that I could now never commit suicide. (Although in fact I did spend most of her first two years seriously considering it). Ive always found thinking of suicide a comfort- the knowledge that I can make it stop if needed, but now I can't as it will fuck up my daughter. It still terrifies me sometimes.

Me too qumquat. I think this is what explains the higher level of distress but lower numbers of completed suicide amongst women vs men.

We’re being gaslighted re suicide all the time I think in that no-one is bothered about the distress that leads to suicide but we obsess over suicide rates and bang on about ‘seeking help’ not much use of the ‘help’ doesn’t exist or is actually just an endless cycle of ADs that do nothing because the problem is social.

I’ve also had days where I think I’ve just had enough of the struggle or feeling completely numb. My feelings are deadened in a lot of ways - I’m very aware that I don’t react ‘normally’ to situations and feel quite detached.

Agree that the narrative around suicide is not helpful at all when the help isn’t there. In fact, I’ve found the callousness of some in positions who are supposed to help, made me feel so much worse. The realisation that there is no real welfare safety net even for the ‘deserving’ and if you do dare to seek help to get back on your feet, you are viewed negatively by society.

Hugs look at this link

YY to the lack of/bad support. I deliberately never mention my disordered eating to drs because their responses over the years have been useless at best and damaging at worst. When I first went to a Dr about my lack of periods aged 17. She (yes, she) weighed me, told me I was underweight and 'some girls' thought they needed to be skinny and they didn't, and sent me on my way feeling two feet tall. Not a single question about my eating habits or general state of mind. I ate a cake on the way home trying to follow her instructions, then starved myself for days because I couldn't cope with having eaten it.

Another classic was when I was in hospital for an allergic reaction to Prozac at 18 and the hospital put me next to an attempted suicide. Then after the night from hell listening to her vomit and discuss her suicide attempt while I was swollen up like a balloon, the superior Dr came round and again made me feel two feet tall by asking sneeringly 'and why were you on anti depressants?' as he clearly thought I was an attention seeking child. I started running out in front of cars directly after that.

These are stories I haven't really told anyone and have been debating posting or not. But this feels like the place to share them.

Qumquat