Honour system

[scotsheather]

I saw 1 or 2 posters advocating the 'honour system' for transgender people, mostly with regard to female spaces. I know the principal of such a system, but how it applies to trans and GNC people I don't know how it works in practice. Is it becoming unfit for purpose, or abused more than before? I've kind of been on the fence about the whole issue as I see the concerns from both sides. Is it more difficult to uphold any honour system than say years ago?

Trans activists want to replace the current honour system (which relies on social behaviour and trust) with the legal right for men to identify as women and enter womens spaces.
What women think about this and how it will affect us is irrelevant to them.

To me, this move feels like an aggressive push.

How sad if a group previously thought to have honesty of intention and respect are overshadowed by a more militant ideology. I would never accept carte blanche right to identify into places of opposite sex, that would undermine the spaces women have fought for and seem to be fighting to keep.

I am very sorry, I am sensitive to the fact this may hurt feelings and it is not my intention to do so. I can't stay silent, I need to exercise free speech.

My feelings have changed about those whom I share intimate spaces with. I now only have interest in sharing with the class that shares my natal biology.

I wish others well in their fight to gain their own spaces and services.

I had zero problem, five years or so ago, with the chap R I'd known for about five years before that, hesitating at the door of the Ladies and asking if we'd have a quick check that it was empty before he nipped in.

I'd liked R before, and I was sympathetic to 'her' (early days of transition, so a bit hard to do the mental re-think needed!), and I knew that s/he had to get through the two-year 'real-life' test and this was part of it.

That was the both-ways honour system working properly.

In retrospect I think insisting that men wishing to transition should use the women's facilities was wrong, and left women's needs and rights out of the equation, but R was handling it as carefully as possible given that framework.

But that was someone I knew and trusted (maybe naively, but there we go). Random male strangers, not so much, for the usual and obvious reasons.

If all were like that Dodo I guess we wouldn't be having the discussions we are now.

This is how I understand the honour system.

At the moment under the GRA trans women with a GRC are legally women. This has been the law for 13 years or so and it means trans women are legally allowed to use sex segregated spaces as women. If you tried to tell a trans woman with a GRC to leave a female only space you would be breaking the law as she has the same rights to that space as any other woman.

There are certain exemptions in the Equality Act which differentiate trans women from women. For example it is lawful to ban a trans women from applying for certain jobs such as a rape crisis counsellor. These exemptions are in place to protect women from abuse.

At the moment obtaining a GRC means living as the opposite gender for two years which many trans people find humiliating, so there are proposed changes to make it easier to obtain a GRC. Some think making the process easier will open it up to abuse.

When people talk about the honour system, I take it to mean allowing a trans person to use a female space on the honour that they are genuine. It is unworkable to expect every trans person to carry around their GRC wherever they go.

A trans person could be at any stage in the gender reassignment process and as they are required to live as the opposite gender for two years that could means using female sex segregated spaces before the GRC has been rubber stamped.

So in effect an honour system to me is spotting a trans person using a female space but honouring their right to be there as genuine.

I was prepared to be kind but I'm not any more. Note to all the people pushing at women's rights - this is what happens.

This

daimbars, the trouble with self ID and the honour system as you see it is how are women supposed to judge between thousands of genuine trans people now allowed to gain access by self IDing and the occasional man trying it on for other reasons nothing to do with being trans.

No gatekeeping means no deterrent to that and so erring on the side of caution by MORE discrimination, not less.

And as no actual transition of any kind is required with self ID (whereas today most transsexuals do physically transition and others with GRAs still have to show evidence of some transition) then how is anyone to judge the threat potential based on biological status of someone self declaring.

It could be anything.

If women make clear they do not accept this then the reality is that the ones who would be no threat will be the ones who care enough to comply and the ones who would not have dared risk it in the past as the gatekeeping deterred them bothering will be the ones emboldened to try it on and cause trouble.

Either way self ID makes a mess of things for decent trans people and puts women in the firing line from the rest.

On both counts this is clearly a bad solution.

The honour system has been blown out of the water by the aggressive approach of the extreme trans lobby. If there's no gatekeeping then any man with any intentions can walk into the women's showers or psychiatric ward and we're not supposed to protest.

That's intrinsically very hostile. There have always been very good reasons to suspect the motives of any visibly male bodied person in spaces where women are naked or receiving intimate care, regardless of what that person may say.

"The honour system has been blown out of the water by the aggressive approach of the extreme trans lobby. If there's no gatekeeping then any man with any intentions can walk into the women's showers or psychiatric ward and we're not supposed to protest."

Has it? Or have trans people decided they need legal protection against the hostility some gender critical feminists have been stirring up. Chicken. Egg. Who can really tell?

For example it is lawful to ban a trans women from applying for certain jobs such as a rape crisis counsellor. These exemptions are in place to protect women from abuse.

What abuse would that be, Daim? Why do you think women might be thought to not want them as a rape counsellor?

I can clearly state that I don't like the fact that men can legally change their sex. The whole thing is fucked. Sometimes, laws are really bad.

Give an inch, take a mile sort of thing. Men have shown women CONSISTENTLY and SYSTEMATICALLY they cannot be trusted on any honour system.

I think gender identity legislation is a BAD idea.

See the new thread I just posted about Gavin Grimm's case where you have a judge interpreting Title IX (legal protection of females on the basis of sex) in the most batshit crazy way as to avoid dealing with this very question.

@MsMcWoodle
"rapey nature of some transactivists, "

Just how many rapes by trans activists in women's spaces have there actually been ?
Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces, Many trans women are beautiful and you cannot tell they are Trans yet you expect them to use male spaces,
This whole situation has been blown out of all proportion by Anti Trans groups,

Giddy I was raped and I'm not beautiful. I didn't realise that being beautiful was so risky 🙄

the legal right for men to identify as women and enter womens spaces.

This happens now. It has for decades. No one is going to go round asking to see a GRC or BC.

Gibberty, if they are that desperate for protection then why are none of them applying for a GRC now under the current rules?

Only almost exactly the number predicted by doctors in 2004 when the GRA was passed (just under 5000 transsexuals) have applied.

All those wanting self ID could do this now if legal status was that vital.

So why aren't they?

Is it the £140? Or the fact that it might take a few months to happen? Or is it just too much hassle? Or is it the need to explain why you want this to a therapist?

Self ID will involve paying money and a wait until it happens. Hassle changing all documents and seeing a lawyer (instead of a doctor) will still be there and might also be what everyone else is asked to live with if it happens.

Only seeing a therapist seems to be the one factor that will vanish entirely if self ID comes in as demanded.

The one thing that might go some way to reassuring women that these people wanting to legally become recognised as women are both serious and do not have any other issues. And the check that might keep out predatory men with nefarious motives who if it is made so easy will find it easy to deceive.

This one thing is not much to ask surely.

So again why have only 4850 out of the half a million trans people done the hard yards to get a GRC? And why should be just hand one over to those who desperately want one but only if handed to them?

I should add for clarity that I am one of the 4850 transsexuals.

I have posted on here recently under another user name (which I was unable to reuse or I would have done so).

I say this as I do not want to appear to be deceiving anyone.

But I am not planning on posting a lot. So don't worry.

However, I have been concerned to see free debate getting stifled on here by fear. I understand that fear but it should not be allowed to stop debating questions that need to be asked.

Feel free to call me any names you like.

Words are just words and if trans people cannot live with them then I have no idea how they are ever going to live a long and happy life after transition.

Because in the real world not everything is going to be about you. Best to understand that now.

This happens now. It has for decades. No one is going to go round asking to see a GRC or BC.

No, but if women see a man come into their space they can have him legally removed. Under the GRA, a man who deludes himself into thinking he's a woman can go into a sex segregated space and women can't object and call the cops and have him legally removed.

The cops show up, the man says he's a woman and/or has an ID with 'female' indicated, and the cops tell the women 'tough shit.'

The man then commits a sexual assault!

This is what happened here in Canada with Christopher "jessica' Hambrook. Guy said he was woman, got into TWO diff women's shelters and then raped women in each shelter.

It's not fair to women and girls. That's the point.

The whole GRA has to go in favour of something that protects the gender nonconforming aspects of ALL people. We shouldn't be discriminating in areas like housing or employment for those men and women who don't perform masculinity and femininity but no legal sex changes.

Mancheeze, realistic achievable aims are to stop self ID, retain as many protections in it as possible, clarify the interaction between the Equality Act and the GRA that will help ringfence women's rights and define and enshrine in law the meaning of the same sex exemptions that rightly exist.

You will get wide support for that.

@Albadross

Sorry you were raped, but you have taken what I said out of context I was referring to the fact you cannot tell many Trans Woman, as they are beautiful,

Giddy, most trans people may be nice and would not knowingly inflict harm.

The problem is self ID has the potential to be abused by those with evil intent.

They will be few. They may not be trans. But if even one of them uses the relaxing of laws then the consequences will impact upon all trans people because the insistence on change will be viewed as the cause.

Trans people are decent people - well then they can show that by understanding the concerns of women and being willing to show some give and take rather than take and take which seems to be what is being expected at the moment.

To change the dialogue insistence on our demands needs to be replaced with compromise and some humility.

What is being insisted upon now just will not be acceptable to many women. Rightly so. The tone of the argument has to change.

Giddy, I think what Albadross was trying to get across was that being beautiful has got nothing to do with whether you're female. One of my relatives is an international catwalk model. Beautiful. He's absolutely stunning. Still a bloke.

That just shows the whole thing up for how reductive and sexist the ideology is. That they think it’s only beautiful trans women that pass.

How utterly offensive.