Honour system

[scotsheather]

I saw 1 or 2 posters advocating the 'honour system' for transgender people, mostly with regard to female spaces. I know the principal of such a system, but how it applies to trans and GNC people I don't know how it works in practice. Is it becoming unfit for purpose, or abused more than before? I've kind of been on the fence about the whole issue as I see the concerns from both sides. Is it more difficult to uphold any honour system than say years ago?

As if unattractive (by patriarchal standards) women aren’t really women. Fuck that noise.

The girl babies killed at birth because of their sex, the girls who suffer FGM, the two women murdered in the UK every week by their male partner... Women and girls are oppressed because of their biology, not their looks.

That's the difference I see between transsexuals and transgender (broad - very broad these days - term).

The former is not so much about beauty and idealisation. It is about being who you are and fitting in.

Many transsexuals are not some feminine beauty icon. I am nowhere near to one but have had little problem living day to day because it is not why I transitioned.

There is a huge difference between the objective of becoming yourself and the one of becoming a woman.

One is living and the other acting up to a preconceived image. From the inside the differences between the two are stark.

That's what, five years ago, I thought it meant to be trans, HomefromtheHills.

Now, damned if I know.

By TRA definitions I'd be trans myself and so would most people I know, but that's about as useful as saying, 'Ooh, we're all a bit OCD/on the autism spectrum somewhere!' and totally missing the point of a actual diagnosis, which is that it's extreme enough to get in the way of everyday life.

Sorry, off-topic.

‘I can clearly state that I don't like the fact that men can legally change their sex. The whole thing is fucked. Sometimes, laws are really bad.’

Completely agree. This law was brought in without women’s consent, even though it effects us. The publicity it is now getting will bring it to the attention of many women, who were previously not aware of what this law actually means; the fact that performing stereotypes means you can change legally sex. The implications of this for women and girls and society as a whole, should now be brought out into the open, and the fact that this law was not a good idea and why needs to be made perfectly clear. It needs to be argued why this was such a regressive law from the outset, and why it needs to go, I think there are some feminists trying to arrange something along this lines.

@Giddy Women have a right to say no.

Artemis7 - totally agree. I think that this was actually brought in without giving women a second thought. Now, some politicians who supported it must be realising their mistake, but they can never own up to having made a mistake.

I agree MsMcWoodle they won’t admit they made a mistake. The other problem, as I see it, is that those that are happy with this law, and are pushing for ever more changes in their favour, have a lot of financial and political clout. They have the money and connections, to send representatives to the top political meetings here and all over the world, and so are able to influence both national and international policy. Feminist women of course do not have such financial and political clout (after all we are not part of the old boys network lol), so we have to rely on strength in numbers, donations etc. I think this is why those that push trans ideology are so frightened of women being able to speak freely, they know that if the majority of women knew what has and is going on, most women would oppose it. They do not want women to stand together and stand up for our rights, so we get all the appeals for sympathy, etc, directed at us from these men, it really is a form of manipulation that must be resisted in my view. The way forward I believe is women standing together with other women and not being side-tracked by the emotional manipulation many of these activists employ. The law cannot realistically support sex based laws, and at the same time allow someone to legally change sex based on what stereotypes they feel an affinity towards, the two are not compatible. In some feminist meetings I know there has been talk about setting something formal up to challenge these laws and re-establish laws based on sex not gender, and I for one will offer my full support, and am sure many other women will also.

The more I think about this the more I see that trans activists and GC feminists have an awful lot in common. Both groups think that gender stereotypes are BS and people should be able to express themselves as individuals. Wouldn't it be great if we could do away with the gender binary and just treat everyone as individuals?

Unfortunately, two things get in the way of this utopian ideal:

1. Biology
2. Male violence

They are the reasons it's important that we can express that transwomen are biologically male.
The honour system worked when there was a very small number of people, but it seems that the ever-widening spectrum under the trans umbrella won't be happy until biology is denied and male violence dismissed as silly hysteria.

Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces, Many trans women are beautiful and you cannot tell they are Trans yet you expect them to use male spaces

Those who "identify as women" and pass are more likely to be the "Haley from Corrie" types rather than the glamour puss types. Those people are not at more risk of being raped or assaulted because men generally don't want to nor feel entitled to have sex with male people. If you think otherwise, please produce the evidence.

Has it? Or have trans people decided they need legal protection against the hostility some gender critical feminists have been stirring up. Chicken. Egg. Who can really tell?

Since transgender people are more likely to be murderers in the UK than murdered I think it is quite clear which came first, male violence or women's fear of male violence.

Words are just words and if trans people cannot live with them then I have no idea how they are ever going to live a long and happy life after transition.

Because in the real world not everything is going to be about you. Best to understand that now.

Yep, and I don't mean that in a cruel way. Setting the expectation for anyone that their life won't have to involve hearing things they don't want to hear and that everyone will always be kind is a recipe for disappointment, because nobody's life is free of those things. Whatever inner doubt the person is trying to soothe by demanding verbal compliance from others will always be there, and setting the expectation that everyone they encounter can be forced to play along is only going to end in frustration when it turns out that people are people and not so easy to control.

Also the idea that pretty = woman is sexist and stupid, the idea that most transwomen will meet a beauty ideal framed around being female is unrealistic (again, setting people up to fail and then get angry and frustrated when they do), and the idea that being pretty is why women are raped is just mind bogglingly clueless (and hurtful and offensive to anyone who ever has been raped).

Why is it that thoughtless, hurtful comments of that nature are considered OK and allowed to stand when many threads currently look like swiss cheese because someone broke the "no calling male people male" rule?

So in effect an honour system to me is spotting a trans person using a female space but honouring their right to be there as genuine.

Another odd shift of responsibility from the transsexual to the female.

Traditionally the honor system consisted of transsexuals behaving honorably by using the facilities quickly and efficiently without trying to chat women up or take pictures or peer over or under the stalls. Basically the honor system means not doing the things males and transgender persons have sometimes been arrested for doing.

Daimbars, you fundamentally misunderstand the honour system. It's on the transsexual person to honour their access to our spaces by using the facilities quickly without intruding on others or seeking validation in any way,

Any weird or overtly male behaviour and the honour system crumbles. Men who have transitioned purely socially or not all the time don't qualify.

Good post Prawn. Daim misunderstands a lot of things.

"Since transgender people are more likely to be murderers in the UK than murdered I think it is quite clear which came first, male violence or women's fear of male violence."

That's a sweeping generalisation. What is the source?

Just how many rapes by trans activists in women's spaces have there actually been ?

Not transactivists, but at my university SU bar, where previously set aside spaces for women have been made "gender" neutral, sexual assaults have gone up exponentially. Of course there's few police reports, and those that are made are no crimed pretty quickly, because generally the young women are drunk and haven't "kept themselves safe". I do find it strange that it's allegedly pro-trans people who are suggesting that it would be trans people causing the problem and not predatory men abusing the system. I wonder why that might be?

Trans Women are more at risk of being raped or assaulted by using male spaces

This is often stated as proven fact, but I have personally seen no proof of it. So, by your own standards of proof, it never happens and is therefore not a problem, therefore trans women are completely safe using male spaces and should do so. The suggestion that trans women might use male spaces comes from you. Do you see how this works now? How utterly disingenuous the argument is?

No bewilderness was claiming that transgender people, both male and female, are more likely to be murderers than be murdered.

Gibberty, the briefest of Googles will help you out there. It’s true.

No. Most comparisons are biased. The number of murders committed tends to look at trans people across the umbrella but it is often not known whether victims are trans so only the number of transsexual victims gets reported. They compare apples with pears.

Ah so the trans murder victims are Schrodinger’s trans who may or may not exist and we can’t ask them about their gender feels in account of being too dead.

Crystal clear then.

I mean, for all we know, every victim of murder ever could be trans. How would we know?

Why is it that thoughtless, hurtful comments of that nature are considered OK and allowed to stand when many threads currently look like swiss cheese because someone broke the "no calling male people male" rule?

A question that occurs to me regularly.