Trans issues and language

[Scrumplestiltskin]

Has anyone suggested using AMAB and AFAB ("assumed/assigned male/female at birth") as neutral and accurate terms on here?
As trans people have often used the terms to describe themselves, they can't complain about it being used by GC feminists. And as it is clear and accurate biologically, GC feminists (like myself,) should find it acceptable too.
Trans people can be indicated by the descriptor "trans" before the amab/afab.
It seems like a solution that everyone should be happy with?

I can only speak for myself but I find the phrase assigned at birth dreadful. We are male, female or very rarely intersex. Sex is observed, not assigned.

Facts about our bodies exist and I will not use language that undermines reality. I cannot use language that undermines reality. Trans women are male, they are males that wish to be women but they are male. This is a neutral fact, not hate.

I have been fighting racism, misogyny and homophobia all my life with little effect. Now we have a movement that seems to own all the words. they also happen to mostly be white and male, go figure!

AFAB is not biologically accurate. Sex is observed, not assigned. It is part of an attempt to position sex as a fluid thing imposed upon us rather than being grounded in biological reality.

Not a term I would ever use, sorry

It's just 4 letters of redundancy though -

Assigned: Incorrect, unless you had ambiguous genitalia
Female: Yep
At Birth: If I was female at birth, I'm female now - humans can't change sex.

So it tells me nothing more than the words 'male' or 'female' do, it's incorrect (so it might be argued, actually tells me less), and it is just yet another piece of jargon, another acronym that makes the discussion inaccessible to people and turns them off even thinking about it (which is probably part of the intention)

OFAB/OMAB are factually accurate (observed not assigned or assumed).

Amab and afab are part of an ideology that sees male/female as an identity and a choice rather than a biological reality. It's an irrational belief opposed by gender critical feminists.

I would drop the A if going that route (MAB/FAB) as sex is not something decided on an arbitrary basis by medical staff at birth - it's irrefutable biology.

Also, as this is Mumsnet, what about all those sex-showing baby scans out there?

Sex is a biological fact before birth.

Hence, in some parts of the world, female babies being deliberately and systematically aborted.

‘

I think it's agreeing to a policing of our language and ultimately us so it's a no from me.

I've been lurking but this is my first post about these issues- what about xx and xy?
I have a daughter and I'm worried for her future.

I agree, I hate ‘assigned’.

Anyone else woken up this morning feeling so very bewildered?

Hi Llama. Welcome.

I only came out of lurk mode on Tuesday. I have a bio daughter of 6 and a step daughter of 11 who lives with me part time, and a very confused 18 year old high functioning autist son.

Like you, I am worried for my children.

Hi Betty, DD is only 2 and was told recently at play group by a little boy that girls can't play with dinosaurs. I set him straight! In the shoe shop the other day I saw a little girl get told she couldn't have the shoes she picked because theyre boys shoes. I pointed out that shoes go on your feet
I'm more than happy to call a transwoman "she, her" if she's just living her life but very uncomfortable with what's going on at the moment.

I use "assumed" as opposed to assigned, as obviously doctors don't assign sex - except legally, in the case of intersex conditions. Which is where the terminology originally comes from, by the by.
Observed is good too, but "AFAB/AMAB" makes use of their acronym so they can't whinge.
And I use "assumed" as in: the doctor looked at the squalling newborn and saw a penis and scrotum - "well, we can safely assume this is a boy."
Again obviously, humans can't change sex, so if you're afab, you'll always be a biological female (would biomale/biofemale be good alternatives? Hmm...)
I know any compromise is a pain in the arse, and may seem silly. But I don't want to see Mumsnet losing amazing commenters and having debate shut down over minor language quibbles, when we all know perfectly well that if you're born with a penis you'll always be a penis person, no matter what you do to that penis - lop it off, turn it inside out, sew it to your ear.
What we need to do is find a way to phrase that truth, which trans activists can't take umbrage with. AFAB and AMAB (or maybe bio male and bio female?) seem like one way to do that.
XY and XX are good and accurate imo, but they always say "have you had your karotype tested?" or "I don't know my karotype" - which is ridiculous and stupid obviously, (especially with women who have given birth and thus are absolutely XX,) but it derails discussion in my experience, debating on reddit.
But if we could come up with some set of terms to use - which are clear about reality, but fall within the rules - I think it'd be really positive for GC feminists here in the wake of the newly laidout rules.
I mostly lurk and soak in the wisdom here, and I don't want to lose all of your fantastic voices.

And yes, Fairfax, I like FAB and MAB better too, personally.

A bit off track, but interesting opinion in Times today. www.thetimes.co.uk/article/assaults-on-free-speech-are-led-by-the-left-l2r8t9t9p?shareToken=06fd2314752521165efe5ee8dff7ed47

I'm not using AMAB and AFAB. Science-denying nonsense. Likewise MTF and FTM.

Would use OFAB and OMAB or FAB and MAB, or MTT and FTT.

I do not feel comfortable appropriating the terms that intersex people use to describe their experience, despite those terms being appropriated by transgender advocates.

What have things come to when we can't use men and women, male and female?

People need to cut the crap and get real!

Excellent piece, refuse.
This - Mslexia tweeted that “Although we welcome open debate, Shriver’s comments are not consistent with Mslexia’s ethos”. - really is face-palm-worthy. How can people not see the contradiction in a forum saying they want to allow open debate, and then gagging the participants in 99 different ways? In order for people to debate they need to be able to voice things the opposite side will find objectionable, and possibly even outright offensive.
I find it offensive that trans MAB people can call themselves women; it is an affront as a FAB person who has undergone a variety of uniquely female biological experiences, and female social experiences, to have the human-specific term for adults of my sex taken away from me and used by people (born) with penises. And yet I'm willing to have them be able to say what they like, in order for us to have this debate. Because I'm not a giant, delicate wuss.

Also for those who want to be very open with debate, I suggest the subreddit GCdebatesQT, where I usually roam

I confess being shocked at the objection to the term transgender identified male since these males talk constantly about being transgender. They even start threads on MN FWR about themselves being transgender.

What have things come to when we can't use men and women, male and female?
People need to cut the crap and get real!

Agreed. And: if only. It's infuriating to have to twist yourself into a pretzel to state plain truth.
And that's understandable, bewilderness. Would FAB and MAB avoid that appropriation?

The problem, as they say it, is that they identify as females, not trans 🙄
Basically, anything with "male" in it is going to be "UNACCEPTABLE!!" to them. Sigh.

The problem, as they say it, is that they identify as females, not trans

But even the EA states that they are trans if that is how they identify with the sex they aren't "assigned"? So stating they are trans is well within the law surely?

Within the law, accurate, and fair, in my opinion, Floeer. As in: they are males who can be identified as transgender.
But it hurts fragile MAB (I'm going with this term for now,) feelings, so of course it's verboten on discussion forums
Eventually some few even protest MAB and "natal male" because they insist they have female brains It's all about running away from being their biological sex.
But I'd rather be a pretzel speaking the truth, than silenced. Which is a sad position to be in, really

Assigned X at birth does a number of things (and some people do say coercively assigned) - it suggests that the terms 'male' and 'female' are not determined by sexed bodies and that sex is open to change. By including 'at birth' what is being said is that this is the label at a certain point in time. I think this can be used as a logistic tool to infer sex is not a biological fact.

I can understand that some people find their sex distressing and prefer people not to refer to it on a day to day basis. Other people find the notion of gender distressing and do not want people to associate gender constructs with them. The solution for many (but not the extreme) is to have a language system that allows us to refer to sex or gender. This way, communication can avoid the pitfalls of creating dis-ease when the sex/gender divide isn't significant to a given situation.

However, sex is a fact and, at times, is significant which is why an individual's sex needs to be accurately recorded and referred to in some contexts.