Trans issues and language

[Scrumplestiltskin]

Has anyone suggested using AMAB and AFAB ("assumed/assigned male/female at birth") as neutral and accurate terms on here?
As trans people have often used the terms to describe themselves, they can't complain about it being used by GC feminists. And as it is clear and accurate biologically, GC feminists (like myself,) should find it acceptable too.
Trans people can be indicated by the descriptor "trans" before the amab/afab.
It seems like a solution that everyone should be happy with?

With regard to recording sex. In the UK, if sex has not be determined within the 42 days, an extension for registering the birth can be awarded so that sex can be determined.

I assume this means that no-one is 'assigned' any more and that sex is accurately recorded on birth certificates

Ms I think the extension would be to allow parents of intersex children with conditions that affect the genitals severely, more time to decide what legal sex to assign their child to. Which is the only time sex is ever "assigned" - and which is still a legal, not biological thing.
"Coercively assigned" is most definitely an intersex term, which is very offensive for trans people to have co-opted. I believe it mostly refers to intersex people who were subjected to unnecessary genital surgery as infants, in order to "fit" a sex's typical phenotype.

I quite like penis-person, myself

It's very clear, Mumsnut, and works even for post-genital surgery penis people, as all they've done is get rid of the penile innards and rearranged the skin - they still have it, though!

I like MAB/FAB! The important thing is to keep posting. We are being heard.

Sadly I don’t think or penis-person will work as mnhq have said we’re not allowed to mention genitals.

Which means no discussion about rape, lesbophobia, female genital mutilation, birth injuries, menstrual health ... and no doubt a whole just of other subjects.

I’m not even sure if we allowed to call a person who is a rapist a man (a crime which is dependant on the possession of a penis).

I'm going to go with women and transwomen. They are discrete categories. A woman can't be a transwoman and vice versa.

wait... what?? are these rules posted over on the Contraception, birth & pregnancy pages? Oh and general health? Is whole of MN aware of this? Blimey! Probably about 50% of my posts are related to woman's health

Also does this mean no more of those "guess my baby's sex" posts?

How about 'transw' ?? Emphases the 'trans' rather than on the 'woman'

Also transm of course.

I can't cope with all these different terms.

I also don't get the assigned at birth thing except in genuine non-clear cut intersex cases.

Absolutely, Bore! I see more and more awareness blooming in regards to trans issues every week. It's fantastic.
And honestly, trans activists fighting for transgender awareness is a big part of what's causing people to "peak" too.
When ordinary boys (as in, MABs who identify as girls, but aren't on hormones, and haven't legally changed gender/sex/whatever,) are beating girls in girls' high school races, and potentially taking scholarship opportunities away from girls etc via that, it's not endearing trans activists to the average person.
Honestly, the more a person talks to trans activists, reads transgender forums, and sees what transgender activists are pushing for, the more a person becomes uneasy/horrified/gobsmacked.
And I think that's the difference between transgender people, and other "minority demographics". The more people talk to women, or disabled people, or people of minority ethnicities, and really listen to their talk of struggles and issues, the more people realise they're just normal people, and discrimination drops.
The transgender demographic is more like an ideology though - the more you really listen to what they're saying, the more uneasy you feel. Because it's not about having a fair go, and being left to it, it's about needing and demanding other people actively participate in their personal beliefs.
(I've probably phrased that horribly though - I've had a glass )

Which means no discussion about rape, lesbophobia, female genital mutilation, birth injuries, menstrual health ... and no doubt a whole just of other subjects.
Oh FFS! Honestly that is just shit.

I’m going with woman & transwoman. I will use female pronouns for women and names/initials or ‘they’ for transwomen. I will not use female pronouns for men of any sort.

And I expect to be deleted for it.

Oooh, transw and transm are good too, mumsnut, although I sympathise with SnuggyBuggy
So much jargon - my head hurts.
And good point, Floeer - if these rules don't apply wholesale to all of Mumsnet, then they shouldn't be in effect. But clearly they couldn't apply to all of Mumsnet, because that would be insane
Honestly I wish we could all just put on our big girls' pants and call each other whatever. But it's not our side complaining, is it [eye roll]

Honestly if TRAs want to call me cis or TERF, whatever - I’d be happy with no censorship. They are wrong.

TRAs want something which is impossible - for men to be accepted as women. This won’t happen and they know it ... GRC, EA, screaming and threatening people, censorship, suicide threats, manipulation, crying. There is nothing they can do which will change reality. That’s why they are so enraged & thay’s Why they want us all to lie.

Yikes I just forgot - are we not allowed to say TRAs either

mnhq have said we’re not allowed to mention genitals.

No, they have said we shouldn't discuss the genitals of indivduals and that context is also important.

So, for instance, I interpret that as it being perfectly ok to state that most MAB transwomen retain their penis and testicles.

And that Ian Huntley is a child-murdering piece of shit who, was, is and always will be a man and, as far as we are aware, still retains his male genitals.

I'm sure MNHQ will let me know if I have misinterpreted anything.

What has happened to the pinned post about the rules? perhaps it wasn't pinned? I thought it sensible for MNHQ to pin it so people 'know the rules'

I just went on the check it because I don't recall anything being written about not being able to mention genitals and it has gone.

Scrumplestiltskin if they aren't applied to rest of MN then, I guess, if we need to talk about rape, genitals or any women's health issues then we shall have no choice but to go to other boards on MN and just post links to those threads on the Feminism Chat Board.

There is nothing they can do which will change reality. That’s why they are so enraged & thay’s Why they want us all to lie.

Exactly!! Which is rather satisfying in a way. Even if they shut us up, they can't shut up biology.

The fact is, society needs to be able to categorise people according to their sex, this is why it is on birth certificates.

There are lots of instances where sex is irrelevant and lots where it is entirely relevant.

Where it is irrelevant, we should have a way of circumventing referring to it. Where it is relevant, we should refer to it unencumbered.

This isn't just on Mumsnet!

Interesting. So we can't say "TRAs" but can we say transgender activists? Trans rights activists? Because if not, how on earth will we refer to those people who engage in activism for the rights of transgender people (whether at the expense of females or not)??
Honestly I feel like Mumsnet is massively dropping the ball on trans issues, not in terms of hosting the debate (which is awesome) but in not knowing how to host and handle a contentious debate.
Tell everyone: don't use insults, don't refer to sex when it's unnecessary to do so, don't use sex as an insult, and don't report posts constantly because they get your goat.
Honestly, they (MNHQ) need to realise that nothing will make some trans people happy except complete and utter submission, so all they can do is lay out fair and reasonable rules, which are utterly clear, and tell the people who pitch a fit over biology to go do one.

And YY, Floeer, maybe we'll just have to take our concerns to other, still relevant, MN boards.

When it comes to individuals transwomen who retain their penis I refer to by surname only.

So are we allowed to say that a rapist is a man (regardless of what they call themselves)? What if they have a GRC?

If self-id doesn’t apply to child murderers and rapists (? Maybe) why should it apply to any man?

Would mnhq clarify if there is a level of criminality which means we don’t have to use a man’s preferred pronouns?

I am honestly confused.

(So we’re definitely not allowed to mention genitals on fwr? That means many feminist topics can’t be discussed here. Is that an unintended consequence or the aim?)