trans women showing solidarity with women

[speakingwoman]

Just wanted to say that my trans friend has done this over the ten years I've known her, particularly in the workplace.

Sorry I can't give all details and yes I know that for many of you the fact she is a trans women means she can't be pro women.

The odd thing is that when forced to talk about trans stuff she never claims to be a supporter of women. No one asks her. It never comes up. You'd have no idea - you'd think she was just another TRA.

Does anyone recognise this? Do we need to invite ordinary trans women to think and talk about what they can do for women?

Trans people can be allies to women as can men. However only if they recognise and work towards dismantling their male privilege. That's not something I see many men doing, whether they identify as feminine/trans or not.

If it was not possible for trans people to be well thought of on here then Miranda Yardley wouldn’t get so many demonstrations of affection and gratitude every single time he posts. The other trans posters like truscum wouldn’t be appreciated.

I think the thing with TRAs and MRAs is that the problem is not the idea with men’s rights or trans rights per se, it is with what rights are being sought through the activism of each.

Someone will be called TRA/MRA (or an ally) if they display indications of those ideologies re particular types of rights being sought.

You can’t reasonably expect feminists on feminism chat to only see the times when some people have helped women and ignore promotion of an ideology that is harming women.

I doubt anyone believes any TRA/MRA always in everything harms women all the time. It’s a shorthand for disagreement with ideology.

*idea of

"I doubt anyone believes any TRA/MRA always in everything harms women all the time. It’s a shorthand for disagreement with ideology."

I expect you're right but as someone on the edge of this debate/new to it I find the sweeping statements about trans women difficult when they clash with positive things I've seen/experienced.

I appreciate part of that is about learning to centre women and girls which this board has helped me with.

I can see why that is the result TBH. I expect that’s why MN have decided to ban accusatory posts using those terms.

I also understand why it could be considered important to use them here (being a feminism board and the inequality issues at the heart of feminism).

Speaking for myself (and I expect many GC women) - I would and I am respectful re the humanity of trans people. I share your concerns re the casualties that may result re all this amongst the trans community. We just don’t talk about it as often as we talk about women because it is a feminism board.

It’s hard because the space has become very open to public scrutiny.

Trans-men and trans-women can absolutely be allies to women, if they agree with the feminist principle that a "feeling" does not and should never qualify you to legally gain access to sex segregated spaces.

Most of the trans-people I know are quietly getting on with their lives and want no part of the fight that's currently being waged. Many of them support a third space option (male, female, anyone) for things like loos, and are absolutely aware and sensitive to the fact that their presence cannot and should never displace a woman from a woman-only space or service.

Hear hear SpartacusAutisticus

Part of the thing is the inequality of TRA ideology having twitter and the ear of govt, the third sector and political parties. This space is one specialist section dedicated to feminism on one website and it’s very hard to accept limits on free speech as a result.

Plenty of trans people don't buy into the gender identity ideology behind the extremist activism. Plenty of them aren't homophobic or misogynistic either. Unfortunately for them, the extremists are doing their best to trash every bit of social acceptance they've gained.

I don't particularly want to throw old school transsexuals under the bus but if they want to help women, it's up to them to speak up.

My concern is women and girls (also boy children). I'll be sticking with centring them.

I think it needs to be highlighted that Miranda Yardley has been absolutely hounded by the extremes of the trans rights activists for speaking up for women. Miranda is an apostate and a hero - and in return only gets vitriol from people who should be classified as allies! There's a lot of other trans individuals - especially those who used to be called transsexuals and believe you need dysphoria to count as trans - also being harassed and called tr*scum if they don't toe the line with the latest developments in trans thinking (which I think is really derogatory).

It really is an ideological issue. It's the demand for total acceptance of a set of ideas, and policing those who do not immediately submit.

It's a bit like comparing it to criticizing hardcore religious fundamentalist Christian doctrine. Nobody is saying that every Christian is bad or even believes the same things. But we have to be able to talk about the broader issues with that religion, to question these ideas robustly. The problem is that anyone who speaks up gets threatened with being burned at the stake for heresy, so tensions can run very high.

I wish that @MNHQ would push back against the transgender advocates trying to take over the Feminist forum with all these trans centered threads.
Either give them a place to talk about themselves or delete them.

“If your friend insists on being referred to as 'she' and uses women's and girl's single sex facilities then your friend isn't an ally to women and is part of the problem.”

I see what you are saying. It would have shocked me a while back but I get why you have this principle.

I struggle with this.

I've said all along that a. the overreaches of certain trans activists, particularly in relation to transitioning children, will eventually result in a public backlash and b. when that happens it will be people like your friend who will bear the brunt of it, the activists currently being shouty and unreasonable about trans issues will simply move on to a different issue.

She both identifies with us ....and as us....... I am less comfortable with the latter than I was......but I see and appreciate what she has done for women around her.

I guess she settled into her trans life over a decade ago before everything got so extreme on the trans activism and everyone thought they had a workable solution......

I find the sweeping statements about trans women difficult when they clash with positive things I've seen/experienced.

Yes OP, me too. I think when you have RL trans friends the sweeping statements about trans women are particularly difficult to read.

I also had a good trans friend at school, never thought of her as anything other than a girl. She was very much pro woman but of course there was no question of her not being one of the girls. It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned. That's why I always speak up on here even though my opinions are unpopular.

This is part of the problem. So many people can't see that talking about a class is not the same as talking to or about an individual.
Or deliberately confuse the issue, to suit their agenda.

Many of us have friends who are trans, or non gender conforming, or gay. The constant cries of 'if only you would bother to talk to someone with X characteristic' are tedious.

As for Daims claims that posters here want people to be harmed or ridiculed, its just SSDD. Tackle the people that you see post those sorts of comments, report them to MN for deletion, and stop tarring everyone with the same brush. You are blind to your own hypocrisy.

We don't want 'people like her' to be feared - we want to protect girls and women! Everything is about girls and women!!

And men do a fine job themselves of making themselves be feared. There is NOTHING women can do to make men more feared than they are already and they have done that all by themselves. Why aren't you talking on men's forums about this issue?

This is the issue people on here like to talk about the theory of trans people mostly. Trans woman when many of them do not know any they are happy to assume a lot. About them. But when faced with the reality it is a lot. Harder to make these sweeping generalisations and lable everyone the same.

Women posting on feminist chat often use class analysis. This should be unsurprising.

It’s tiresome to have this place invaded by people who don’t understand this and make it all about individuals all the time.

Many of us have friends who are trans, or non gender conforming, or gay. The constant cries of 'if only you would bother to talk to someone with X characteristic' are tedious.

They really are.

It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned.

Daim, none of us want that. To say this is flat out lying. Wishing to have female only spaces, and our rights as a sex respected means none of these things.

talking about a class is not the same as talking to or about an individual.

If a group of individuals make up a class then sweeping statements can be taken to refer to that individual.

It's like lumping all Christians in with Christian fundamentalists, all Muslims in with Isis.

As Bespin points out when people don't know any trans people they are happy to assume a lot. To believe the actions of a handful of TRAs on Twitter are an accurate representation of trans people. And people like me and the OP have RL experiences that conflict the opinion on here.

No it really isn’t.

If you think that it is then the discussions are going over your head and your perspective is one of assumption based on your own prejudice.