trans women showing solidarity with women

[speakingwoman]

Just wanted to say that my trans friend has done this over the ten years I've known her, particularly in the workplace.

Sorry I can't give all details and yes I know that for many of you the fact she is a trans women means she can't be pro women.

The odd thing is that when forced to talk about trans stuff she never claims to be a supporter of women. No one asks her. It never comes up. You'd have no idea - you'd think she was just another TRA.

Does anyone recognise this? Do we need to invite ordinary trans women to think and talk about what they can do for women?

And people like me and the OP have RL experiences that conflict the opinion on here.

How do you know we haven't, Daim? How do you know how many trans people I know? How do you know what experience I have with current and historical trans culture?

The answer is: you don't.

The takeaway from that for me is: you simply cannot conceive of a pro-woman position and outlook. It's beyond you. Sadly.

The figures for this do not now support that again sweeping generalisation and does not account for trans men or non. Binary people who appear to be one of the largest percentages

Speaking I've read plenty of threads where regular gender critical posters on this board have stated that they are happy to use preferred pronouns for individuals, as a courtesy. Not everyone here agrees on this subject. My own view is that I would use preferred pronouns where appropriate, but my objection is to this being enforced by threats and penalties, as it is now in practice in some institutions, and even legally in some places (not the UK).

The vast majority of trans people are AGP males, daimbars.

It's just not true. In fact it's a downright lie. It's one of the sweeping statements so often made on here which is completely unjust.

It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned.

This is also just not true and is completely unjust Daim. You know it isn't.

The fearing, ridiculing and shunning that takes place is overwhelmingly against feminists for daring to want to talk about proposed changes which will affect women and girls, and for pointing out that the majority of the public are unaware of the implications of these proposals.

Daims, of course it's true! I'm sure you know some very nice trans people like I know some very nice men...doesn't mean I don't think men as a GROUP are pretty abusive to women!

The vast majority of trans people are AGP males, daimbars.

Um, don't think so. Given that there isn't even a "vast" majority of males in the trans population, this is clearly false. I would even say the vast majority of transwomen aren't AGP fetishists.

As daim says, this particular statement and ones like it have nothing to do with class analysis and everything to do with creating a false impression of the trans population.

Nice Darvo with a self righteous spin there, daimbars.

Oh for heaven's sake, a conversation online - on a website where tone and respectfulness are moderated for, no less - has nothing in common with domestic violence. It really is shameful to keep trotting out DARVO every time someone types a few words in disagreement.

"I also had a good trans friend at school, never thought of her as anything other than a girl. She was very much pro woman but of course there was no question of her not being one of the girls. It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned. That's why I always speak up on here even though my opinions are unpopular."

This. And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male.

Too many people here are portraying this as a clash between feminism and trans rights. It isn't. It is a clash between two very different types of feminism.

It's just not true. In fact it's a downright lie. It's one of the sweeping statements so often made on here which is completely unjust.

And I reported it

I think it's important that feminists like me, Rat and Gib challenge the extremist views on here.

Folks often say 'why don't the general, harmless trans people have a word with the TRAs that are spoiling everything'

So this is what is looks like when liberal feminism challenges radical feminism on trans issues. It's a discussion and a debate. Not sure how it could be seen as darvo

People keep saying why are there so few posts about trans men. The answer is that many of the people speaking up are feminists and are naturally more interested in supporting women than men (ie trans men)

OP, I'm sure your friend is lovely :) She doesn't need to prove anything to other women; no woman does. There are no entry criteria for being suitably "pro woman" before you're allowed to be what you are. God knows there are enough women who couldn't give a stuff about feminism, other women, or even anyone but themselves! There are men like this too. That's the world we live in.

There are a few broad schools of thought here on MN. The one I have most sympathy for (although it seems to be in the minority these days) is that transwomen are just getting on with their lives and that's all fine. Women have specific needs and requirements in everyday life, and sometimes it is problematic to have services for women and transwomen. And that self-ID might be a bit of an over-simplistic unhelpful suggestion on the part of the government that disproportionately disadvantages women.

Then there are those who have a problem with the ideology. They stray from discussing what to do about the practical aspects of integrating trans people into society and fixate on their being acknowledged only as gender-non-conforming individuals of their natal sex. There are long threads belittling the personal and deeply held beliefs of trans people - with no positive practical outcome except spreading their dislike - and very rarely will such posters make even the slightest concession (such as using the term "transwoman" or neutral pronouns) to peaceful co-existence with those who think differently. They paint transgenderism as an existential threat to women in a way that goes beyond class analysis, and into (as a poster up thread even said), "if you friend believes xyz, she is part of the problem". That isn't class analysis, that is creating an enemy of the ideation of a whole group of people.

Aaaanyway, I'd like to think that however you find yourself settling in this debate, that nothing will sway you from seeing your friend as a valid human being who can live peacefully with their own sense of self. That doesn't mean you have to agree with the government's current policy on prisons, or with self-ID proposals, but I do hope you never come to see your friend as anything other than your friend.

"And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male

Too many people here are portraying this as a clash between feminism and trans rights. It isn't. It is a clash between two very different types of feminism."

No, it is a clash between women, and the men who want to be them.

@RatRolyPoly There are a few broad schools of thought here on MN. The one I have most sympathy for (although it seems to be in the minority these days) is that transwomen are just getting on with their lives and that's all fine. Women have specific needs and requirements in everyday life, and sometimes it is problematic to have services for women and transwomen. And that self-ID might be a bit of an over-simplistic unhelpful suggestion on the part of the government that disproportionately disadvantages women.

That is where I started a matter of months ago.

However the incessant "mission creep" by the activist minority of the wider trans community has removed the goodwill and "rub along together" spirit I had, as I feel there is no viable solution that meets both groups' needs in this debate. I find myself now more hardline and fearful that that the "give an inch, take 10 miles" approach must be stopped before it can be started. I didn't do that, the activist minority did. They made their own bed, and did it on (unasked-for) behalf of the trans community at large who were just getting on with life.

Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk.

Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk.

Who's "they"? Numerous members of the trans community have been here in the spirit of understanding and compromise. Could they not be the "they" who shaped your views? Need it be the loudmouths on Twitter?

And for exactly the same reasons I will fight to ensure that women like that are not excluded from being described as a woman and allowed in female spaces, including when they haven't had surgery or hormones. For me that isn't about trans rights, it is a femist viewpoint in support of those women.

In other words, to support any natal male who identifies as a woman to be allowed in female spaces without any question.

It's a campaign to center all people who were born male but identify as women, no matter what their physical appearance or life experience, in the movement of feminism.

It minimizes what it means to be female to only an internal "identity," as it divorces feminism from the reality of biological sex.
It demands that the female struggle to overcome sex-based oppression now include and cater to members born in the opposite sex if they claim to be women. Despite them having no idea what it's like to have been born in a female body, and raised their whole lives as female.

I know which feminism I'm choosing, and it's the one for females.

That includes fighting all attempts to label women like that - all trans women - as male.

All trans women are male...
Why else would they "transition"?
Can natal females identify as "trans women"?

Lovely post Rat.

OP at the end of the day if your trans friends appears genuinely pro woman you have the choice of trust or suspicion. Personally I would choose trust every time.

Choose skepticism, logic, and reason.

"Trust in me" reminds me a little too much of Kaa's song in the Jungle Book.

"Had they been happy to work with us to try and establish a common framework where everyone's needs were considered and valued equally, then I think a lot more of us would still be more willing to talk."

@RatRolyPoly Who's "they"? Numerous members of the trans community have been here in the spirit of understanding and compromise. Could they not be the "they" who shaped your views? Need it be the loudmouths on Twitter?

Apologies - the "they" were the activist groups I referred to previously. The "loudmouths" are the ones agitating for change and having real effects on policy and potentially law, so they should be the ones working with women to bring about respectful, mutually agreeable terms, not just imposing their will above all else. Unfortunately they chose a different path and in doing so, have removed a lot of the respect and goodwill I also mentioned previously existed.

The trans people we see posting on on here (for example) are part of the other group I mentioned who were just happily living alongside the rest of the world in the status quo. They have only had to push themselves forward because of the activists' actions - which are having a detrimental effect on the "peaceful" (for want of a better word) trans community and women at large.

I hope that explains the "they" better.

yes I know that for many of you the fact she is a trans women means she can't be pro women.

I don't believe this at all.

I dearly wish more transwomen would roll up their sleeves and campaign about fgm, domestic abuse, rape conviction rates and rape culture and child marriage. Instead you have a proportion if women saying we mustn't centre female biology in feminism and it's even transphobic to talk about such things.

Anyone can be pro-women. We need more people to care about all these really serious issues for changes to be made.

It breaks my heart that posters on this forum want people like my friend to be feared, ridiculed and shunned

This comment completely twists what people are striving for on here.

I am gender critical. I don't want anyone to be ridiculed or shunned. I don't believe the vast majority of trans people are to be feared. I am polite to trans people when i meet them. Funnily enough I'd like to live in a society where everyone is safe and free to live their lives as they please, as long as they aren't hurting anyone.

thanks for the replies addressed to me (appreciate I don't own the thread).

Draco: I don't think my friend recognises her male privilege but I would say she works towards dismantling it unconsciously because her fellow-feeling with the women around her (who are underestimated by the other males) leads her to do things that undermine her male privilege.

Offred - I definitely agree that just because someone is nice we can't ignore the promotion of laws that would harm women e.g. going along with a legal fiction of a healthy male-bodied 15 year old sharing sleeping quarters with healthy female-bodied 15 year olds - anyone with common sense knows that xx plus xy plus sleeping in the same tent is a bad idea and if you school the xx and xy to act "as if" they were both xx so nothing bad could happen that's just daft as a brush.

Same goes for you and your friend Daimbar. You introduce language about shunning people and ridiculing which no one else has introduced and I want to disassociate myself from your post for that reason. As to the substance of what you say, presumably you accepted this friend of yours as one of the girls because she behaved appropriately and earned that status but we can't give carte blanche to anyone who fancies it to self-identify as a woman because not everyone earns that privilege. Again, healthy 15 year olds of the opposite sex sleeping in the same tent will result in underage pregnancies and possibly non-consensual sex if the male-bodied teen is being miseducated about their own natural appetites/sexual curiosity.

DailyMai clickbait I think I agree

Bewilderness I think you were in a bad mood.

Angry - I'm not that convinced about the "self-ID will be bad for transexuals too" argument. More to the point I think it's not my argument to make - that is one thing I've learned from this board. I will leave it to truscum and others.

LangCleg point taken.

Upstart - one thing to bear in mind is that for most of the populaton "class analysis" is a phrase we're hearing for the first time on this board. It can feel like unfair generalisation (though I have come to see that it probably isn't if done responsibly).

LastGirlOnTheLeft. Yes.

Bespin. Yes point fairly made and taken.

Offred. Most people don't understand class analysis so you may have to flag if you start a thread that you only want those who do understand to contribute to.

kesstrel. Yes point taken. my current issue is that I am wondering if I need to challenge my friend slightly/introduce the issue/be more up front. She knows what I think about the activist brigade but that's all. I think I wish she could acknowledge the conflict of interest as Barack has described it elsewhere.

re references to AGP - I don't really understand this aspect of the debate but truscum posted a link to a blog written by someone who (truscum said) exhibits AGP and its content appeared to me a neutral thing - in itself neither admirable nor anything to be ashamed of.

Gibberty I don't get your point of view and can you ease off on the reporting of posts please it is very aggressive and unpleasant.

Rat - I appreciate the thoughtful response and your contributions generally. I think the attraction of the "existential threat" and "trans women are not women" arguments is their straightforward logic. But you could say the same of the Catholic church's arguments against abortion! The simple and logical argument isn't always the right one.