I am S p a r t a c u s

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

I am a woman.

I was a girl.

I am an adult human female.

Something a man can never be.

I am a woman.

People refer to me has her and she.

Sometimes said with deep contempt and misogyny.

I am a woman.

Something a male will never be.

I have a vagina and uterus.

I menstruate and have given birth.

I am a mother.

Something a male will never be.

I have been insulted, assaulted, belittled, dismissed, held back, intimidated, stereotyped, terrorised, mocked, shamed, humiliated because I am a woman.

Something a male can never be.

I feel insulted, appropriated, offended, anxious, tense, depressed, hurt and under siege, when a male claims to be a woman or anyone says a male can be female.

It is not civil or respectful to treat me this way.

I am a woman.

I am Spartacus.

You would never say that because it's rude?

That's not what I said.

You think it's 'rude' to use language to describe the source of discrimination?

That's not what I said.

A poster was just discussing 'impolite women'. How timely.

Oh wonderful. Nothing to do with what I said.

Look, you set up a specific example of a named individual, and now you're trying to infer that what I said about not discussing that named individual (which would likely be in breach of Talk guidelines) is somehow my position on discussing general terms in the context of a depersonalised wider debate.

That is not the case. And it is a disingenuous twisting of this conversation.

Stonewall's definition of gender identity:

A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth.

I am and forever will be a woman. When they dig my bones up in a thousand years dna will identify me as such. As they will when they dig up the bones of men who want to be women. Science, dna....it will NEVER be obliterated, despite the protestations of this new world order. We will NEVER bend the knee, we will fight against the trynny of transgenderism forever. It took our sisters the Suffragettes over 50 years.......YOU WILL NEVER SILENCE US.

I AM SPARTACUS.

How is biological sex not relevant to feminism, Rat?

Paris Lees' biological sex is of limited interest to feminism in the context of this conversation.

Rats you appear to be referring to gender expression, as defined by Stonewall:

How a person chooses to outwardly express their gender, within the context of societal expectations of gender. A person who does not confirm to societal expectations of gender may not, however, identify as trans.

Bloody annoying isn't it Chief that terms are colloquially equated; "gender" re: "gender identity" is a common one.

Paris Lees is a transactivist campaigner and transactivism is relevant to feminism. Wouldn't you agree?

I am a woman.

Men can't be women. Nobody can change sex. Facts aren't hate speech.

I am Spartacus.

Paris Lees' biological sex is of limited interest to feminism in the context of this conversation.

Actually, I agree in as much as Paris Lees' biological sex is male therefore Paris has no say in feminism

I'm not Chief, I'm not talking about their expression, I'm talking about their innate sense of identity.

Di you think about what I asked re: knowing which set of stereotypes society seeks to impose on you?

Paris Lees is a transactivist campaigner and transactivism is relevant to feminism. Wouldn't you agree?

Trans activism is relevant to feminism. Paris Lees would continue to be a trans activist regardless of physiology or chromosomal make-up. Pretty sure we're derailing to nowhere here....

But I know when I wear mascara I'm being gender-conforming not gender-non-conforming.

I know when I get my high-vis on and head out to a building site that that is gender-non-conforming and not gender-conforming.

THAT is what gender identity is; that knowing.

It is not the stereotypes.

Erm, I know when I'm gender conforming because I know 1) my sex and 2) the gender stereotypes associated with that sex. What is the concept of 'gender identity' adding to this, in your mind? Where does it come in?

Bloody annoying isn't it Chief that terms are colloquially equated; "gender" re: "gender identity" is a common one.

Isn't it just Rats, given you are the one who is doing just that.

So, given the handy clarification we've had from Stonewall as to what gender identity is and what gender expression is, would you care to explain this statement again:

THAT is what gender identity is; that knowing.

Because if you mean by knowing there are stereotypes and you are adhering to them, that falls under expression, not identity, surely?

Information here with regards who has legal 'gender identity'

I am sure that Christine Burns is very well informed about this.

Christine is quoted in 2013 article about the origins and background to the 'Press for Change' organisation:
"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press"
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

I am a woman, but have never been 'feminine'. That's okay because there are all kinds of women. There are also all kinds of men, including those who are 'feminine'.

I'm a scientist, but am happy for others to have a different belief systems. I see trans ideology as a belief system. I acknowledge your belief system but I do not choose to share it and when you say I must acknowledge you are a woman you are forcing me to share your belief. I will not do this.

So I am Spartacus too.

How is biological sex not relevant to feminism, Rat?

'Paris Lees' biological sex is of limited interest to feminism in the context of this conversation'

that was quite the side-steppy answer Rat

you know, I know, the world knows that biological sex is fundamentally relevant to feminism.

woman aren't oppressed because of what they like to wear, or because they feel comfortable being touchy feely, or they can't read maps, or what ever other insulting stereotypes you want to wheel out.

woman are oppressed because of their biology.

I'm not Chief, I'm not talking about their expression, I'm talking about their innate sense of identity.

I can't speak for others but I do not have an innate sense of gender identity, so you will have to clarify further because you appear to be tying yourself up in knots.

Di you think about what I asked re: knowing which set of stereotypes society seeks to impose on you?

Not quite sure what you mean here. I understand the stereotypes that society imposes and sometimes adhere to them, which by the above definitions is gender expression. I do not have an innate sense of gender therefore I don't have a gender identity, as outlined in the Stonewall definition. I cannot be clearer with this.

Is this necessary again?

Been on Mumsnet with a few different email addresses and umpteen different usernames since I got pregnant with my first 9 years ago. As Joy said upthread, sometimes you just need advice and hints from females who've been there before, you can't run for the doctors for every little thing, and I don't have family to turn to. Sometimes I've been able to pass it on to others.

That's females, XX chromosomes, who have the experiences that men, XY, have never had and can never have. Rapists can spot the bloody difference. Those males slightly lower down the spectrum of misogyny can too, they all started pointing me out at 11 and I'm worried about my dd who can expect to go through the same treatment. The male law and male state never gave a shit and I don't expect them to start now, but this business of them trying to tell me that my existence is nothing but a dream in a man's head can FROTTFSOF right now. Spartacus. Reality.

Erm, I know when I'm gender conforming because I know 1) my sex and 2) the gender stereotypes associated with that sex. What is the concept of 'gender identity' adding to this, in your mind? Where does it come in?

This is fair; it is a completely logical position IMO that your gender identity is known on account of knowing your biological sex. I consider people who don't believe that one's gender identity can be separate and at odds with one's biological sex to be "gender identity critical". And that's fine, I totally understand that.

The other position is equally logical to my mind. Many trans people may say that their true, lived experience is that their gender identity does not correlate with their noted biological sex; so it simply cannot be a case for them that knowing one's gender identity is simply a case of knowing one's assigned sex. Experts in the field may agree with them.

For me there is enough evidence of the latter that I feel I have to accept that gender identity may be a phenomenon in its own right. I don't think you need to believe that too, but that (to the best of my understanding) is the logic of those who do.

thanks camper my answer got binned by a lost connection

that was quite the side-steppy answer Rat

She asked me a direct question about Paris Lees Reluctant and then wanted to use my answer to infer what I thought about biological sex re: feminism.

Of course biological sex is relevant to feminism, I never said it wasn't. I said Paris Lees biological sex was of limited relevance!

The other position is equally logical to my mind. Many trans people may say that their true, lived experience is that their gender identity does not correlate with their noted biological sex; so it simply cannot be a case for them that knowing one's gender identity is simply a case of knowing one's assigned sex. Experts in the field may agree with them.

Yes, this is gender dysphoria and nobody on this board has ever denied that this happens as far as I know.

But we've got the gist: it's impolite to talk about people's biological sex. Wry revealing.

Of course it's relevant: lees is a trans campaigner. Lees uses women's spaces. Very hard to see why it is not relevant.

But we've got the gist: it's impolite to talk about people's biological sex. Wry revealing.

No, you've got the twist Pratchet. It is impolite to talk about the biological sex of a named individual where it is not relevant, particularly on a website where it is against Talk guidelines to do so.

Twisty twisty twist.