I am S p a r t a c u s

[PermissionToSpeakSir]

I am a woman.

I was a girl.

I am an adult human female.

Something a man can never be.

I am a woman.

People refer to me has her and she.

Sometimes said with deep contempt and misogyny.

I am a woman.

Something a male will never be.

I have a vagina and uterus.

I menstruate and have given birth.

I am a mother.

Something a male will never be.

I have been insulted, assaulted, belittled, dismissed, held back, intimidated, stereotyped, terrorised, mocked, shamed, humiliated because I am a woman.

Something a male can never be.

I feel insulted, appropriated, offended, anxious, tense, depressed, hurt and under siege, when a male claims to be a woman or anyone says a male can be female.

It is not civil or respectful to treat me this way.

I am a woman.

I am Spartacus.

Problem Rat is that we are talking biology and sex not gender. It is my sex that defines me not gender.

I am spartacus and this is my hill.

It is suggesting that pregnancy is something that validates a woman. I understand that many women feel that way and are entitled to do so. But it makes some women feel they are shut out from that validation.

It's nothing to do with validation. Pregnancy - the fear/risk of pregnancy, the wish to, or inability to become pregnant - are things the majority of women are concerned with for almost the whole of their adult lives - from puberty until menopause. We have a nice little monthly reminder of it too, throughout our adult lives.

As soon as a woman is sexually active with a man, she has to concern herself with the possibility of pregnancy. Either preventing it, or planning maternity & motherhood. Women subjected to rape, coercive control and domestic sexual violence are also at risk of unwanted pregnancy. Motherhood carries with it extra challenges - women still do the vast majority of childcare - women's careers tend to take a hit more than men's when they have children. Women suffer poor maternity care, and many suffer birth injuries.

These are women's issues. They only happen to women - identity doesn't come into it.

I was born a human female, this is the only way to become a woman once grown up.
There is no other way

Yep, that would be gender.

Gender has nothing to do with this at all. We are talking about sex, gender can fuck right off when it comes to definitions.

Gender has no place in the definition of a woman. Or a man for that matter. It's completely irrelevant.

Holy cap. MNHQ have now clarified that we are not allowed to refer to a person's sex - even in brackets, even for clarity, even to discuss relevant issues and we must be forced to use and be limited to the terminology of the authoritarian ideology of transgenderism.

Give your mates a wink Emma!

Where did they do that

I am Spartacus.

More later.

I've lurked silently for long enough.

Here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3277316-Mumsnet-moderation-of-trans-rights-and-gender-critical-issues-II?pg=12&order= it's the same mod who made the earlier 'clarification'.

For a long time I thought I would not be able to have children. I knew logically it didn't make me less of a woman but nevertheless I felt less of a woman. Discussion of pregnancy etc did upset me. But I accepted that this was my issue to come to terms with. I didn't expect people not to talk about their pregnancies or their children. No one has a right to be shielded from things that might upset them.

Trans issues affect wider society and we need freedom to discuss them and words to name them.

Is that an admission that you do wish to erase sex completely in favour of 'gender'?

Um... no? Not sure if you actually think that's what I'm saying or not, because I'm looking back at my post, and... Anyway, no. That's not what I'm saying.

Can you let me know, and can you define 'gender', before we move on?

Gender, not to be confused with gender identity, is the structure of stereotypes associated with biological sex. In our patriarchal society these stereotypes are a tool to oppress and disadvantage women, whilst remaining damaging to all people on account of limiting their free choice and expression, and lashing both men and women to a hierarchy where females/women/femininity are seen as inferior.

I'm sure you don't disagree with that. All done here?

I am a woman.

I defend the rights of women and girls to do things that are not perceived as feminine.

I defend the rights of boys and men to act in ways that are not perceived as masculine.

That does not and will not make them the opposite sex but should and will challenge stifling, oppressive notions of gender.

I am Spartacus.

Great. So you don't want to erase sex, which you acknowledge is tied to reproductive role. So if we are going to chat, we need to understand each other. That means we need to mean the same thing by certain words.

So I'd need to know the words for people's sex, as tied to reproductive role. I use male and female, and because we are human, man and woman. These are the words tied to reproductive role. What words do you use?

Problem Rat is that we are talking biology and sex not gender. It is my sex that defines me not gender.

Oh? My sex is "female" not "woman". I thought we were talking about being a woman. "Woman" is not the word used to describe my sex-based role.

FWIW "gender" does not define me either, but my gender identity might.

I was Spartacus first time there thread came round and I still am.

Excellent Rat, good definition.

Can we infer that "gender identity" is therefore to do with "identifying with gender stereotypes"?

Now can you give a definition of woman that doesn't refer to gender/identity/stereotypes or feelings?

Pratchet if we're talking biological sex I use male and female. Also legal sex I use male and female. The former may or may not correlate to the latter. There are some grey areas.

Man and woman have several meanings and a social factor - as per a previous conversation I'm sure you were around for (can't remember, could be wrong) - not least because it supposes adulthood which also has a variety of meanings (legal, biological and social).

Where are we going with this? Are you sure this isn't a derail?

Can we infer that "gender identity" is therefore to do with "identifying with gender stereotypes"?

No, I don't think that's an accurate inference. Gender identity is more a sense of one's own identity; in real terms that can be equated to "knowing which set of stereotypes refers to you".

I am spartacus. Sex change is impossible. Female is not a feeling.

We have to have the same meaning in order to communicate. What's your word for an adult male?

You can quit with the word salad by the way.

People can express themselves however they want. Be as feminine or as masculine as they want. But nobody can change sex, not now, not ever.

Truth is not hatred. We know the truth. We cannot be compelled to lie.

I am Spartacus.

What's your word for an adult male?

If I want to describe and adult male I say adult male. Would you like dressing with that?

No, that's great. Would you refer to Paris Lees as an adult male?

No, Toetotoe, it's not 'mean' when transwomen take the place of women in sports, politics, or media. It's ruthless. And I can't openly state why ruthlessness is acceptable, even normative, for some but not others, because that would be impolite.

And we know what happens to 'impolite' women.

No, that's great. Would you refer to Paris Lees as an adult male?

No. I have no knowledge whatsoever of Paris Lees' biology, and no reason to discuss it.