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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transgender contributors - is a third space enough for you.

89 replies

Kettlepotblackagain · 12/06/2018 20:40

There appears to be a few transgender users and contributors on mumsnet. I’d like to ask you directly. Why aren’t you campaigning for a third space? Is it important to you to be allowed to use the women’s spaces? Is it the threat of voilence in other spaces? If so can you not see your hypocrisy?

Please directly explain to me why you are not happy to have a separate space of your own.

OP posts:
Pratchet · 13/06/2018 14:08

Not women's problem to solve. Male violence against GNC males = male problem.

GeordieTerf · 13/06/2018 14:44

Isnt there an XY ex-prisoner currently suing the UK prison system for being housed in the male side? I remember reading about it in the Guardian a few months back.

Kettlepotblackagain · 13/06/2018 15:58

I’ve appealed directly to the transgender contributors on here, however I don’t seem to have got an clear answer - unless I have missed something? I would have thought there would be a very well thought out and considered and consistent response to this as it is so extremely important and is surely one of the most basic and frequent questions that is asked, so I would assume any response would also be supported by evidence, critique of current law and outlining of new policy. Where is it? I don’t mean to sound like I am goading - I would genuinely like to know the answer...

OP posts:
SarahAr · 13/06/2018 16:05

Why aren’t you campaigning for a third space?

"Separate but equal" - is not, and has never been, the answer

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 16:09

It's racist to appropriate racism by comparing knowledge of biology to racism. Stop appropriating racism. It is nothing to do with trans XY who want access to female spaces.

Wakame · 13/06/2018 16:12

The ideal would be gender neutral toilets with floor to ceiling cubicles.

However, if you have to have a third toilet, then you could designate that for anybody who wasn't comfortable in the male and female toilets. For example, non-binary people or intersex people who feel they don't fit into the other 2 bathrooms or transphobes who want to avoid trans people.

HornyTortoise · 13/06/2018 16:18

transphobes who want to avoid trans people.

Yup, people who want to retain sex segregation rather than it being the free for all transactivists want are definitely transphobic. There could not possibly be any other reason.

HornyTortoise · 13/06/2018 16:22

Wait, were you meaning that 'transphobes' should be the ones to use this third space idea, rather than those who feel they are not the sex that they are?! I read that totally wrong.

So basically, women need to fight for female only spaces all over again. Fantastic solution. I think you might find that in general, sex segregation is quite a popular idea. Fitting so many people into this third space would take a fair bit of space. When the solution could easily just be, obviously male people who do not wish to use the male areas could use the unisex option.

Rather like the Hampstead Heath thing actually. There is NO reason for male people to be in the female pool at all. When a unisex option is available.

Wakame · 13/06/2018 16:45

"So basically, women need to fight for female only spaces all over again."

Trans women are women, so there's that. And we have been using the women's toilets for years - it's all fine - most people don't bat an eyelid. I think you'd find that the third space for transphobes etc, would be rarely used.

For example, there are many places with 2 "normal" toilets, and a single cubicle disabled toilet. And yet, despite the fact that trans women already use the "normal" female toilet, women continue to go in there, rather than queue for the disabled toilet.

terfinator · 13/06/2018 16:54

I'm sorry @Wakame, but I think a lot of natal women are uncomfortable with the current system. They're just too scared to speak up about it.

I personally don't have a problem with the "honor system" we have atm, but the recent explosion of gender identities does have me worried.

I do hope there's a practical solution for everyone though. Smile

Bowlofbabelfish · 13/06/2018 17:04

And we have been using the women's toilets for years

The sort of gentlewomans agreement you describe has indeed been going on for years and it’s largely worked. It’s now under threat - not from transwomen with gender dysphoria who just want to quietly get on with their lives, but from vocal activists who want Self ID which will mean that any man can enter the ladies.

This puts women at risk, and it puts transwomen at risk too - transwomen are not under physical threat from women, let’s be clear about that - it’s general Male violence that is a physical threat to them. Allowing all men in, and removing the safeguards that kept all men out will destroy the women’s spaces as safe spaces and nobody, not women, not transwomen will benefit from it. Assault rates of both women and transwomen will rise.

There’s also the rather unpleasant possibility of societal backlash - and it won’t be against general men, it’ll be against the genuine transwomen who didn’t cause the problem in the first place. That is not something we want to happen either.

There is a practical solution. There can be Male spaces, female spaces and unisex spaces. If those unisex spaces were large, totally self contained units then they could also be used by families, or mother/son father/daughter pairs, or people who need a bit more space for mobility issues, etc etc.

What can’t happen is what’s happening now, where the men’s remains the men’s and the women’s is turned unisex. That simply isn’t fair.

jollyoldsoul · 13/06/2018 17:57

I always thought I'd be a fan of the village set up for changing cubicles....until I was in one and too scared to cough in case I 'outed' myself as a lone female! I stayed silent, hiding my shoes out of sight, and didn't stop to dry my hair.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 13/06/2018 19:03

And yet, despite the fact that trans women already use the "normal" female toilet, women continue to go in there, rather than queue for the disabled toilet.

Well yes. Because they're not pushing into spaces reserved for other people that they don't belong in. Hmm

HornyTortoise · 13/06/2018 19:34

I personally don't have a problem with the "honor system" we have atm, but the recent explosion of gender identities does have me worried.

Same here. Its this 'anyone who identifies as a woman' shit thats pushed by transactivists that I am strongly against.

Though to be honest, the third space option would surely suit all. I cannot see whats wrong with it, the only conclusion I can draw from the reaction to the suggestion of a third unisex option is..its specifically female spaces that they (transactivists) want into. I kind of blame the signs on loos/changing room doors that seemed to over time become pictures of someone in trousers and someone in a skirt rather than saying male and female, this is when MRAs decided they could take the piss. IMO.

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