Transgender contributors - is a third space enough for you.

[Kettlepotblackagain]

There appears to be a few transgender users and contributors on mumsnet. I’d like to ask you directly. Why aren’t you campaigning for a third space? Is it important to you to be allowed to use the women’s spaces? Is it the threat of voilence in other spaces? If so can you not see your hypocrisy?

Please directly explain to me why you are not happy to have a separate space of your own.

My dd is one of those people who is at risk of GID and was very nearly referred to the Tavistock centre. She is GNC. Other kids challenge her in the toilets so often and adults stare at her in the changing rooms at the swimming pool with judgy eyes "you're too old to be in here boy with us women". Most people who post here would just know she is female but out there many people just do not see past clothes and hair. She's autistic so very disinclined to use disabled loos as well because she's afraid of being challenged coming out of one and she doesn't want to be a 'special case' at school. Many autistic people suffer from gender identity issues and I suppose they are high maintenance but for good reason.

And actually communal changing rooms at school are just bloody awful. Children have to suffer such constant indignity when their bodies are changing and they feel disoriented

Communal changing rooms at school are awful for everyone involved and the sooner they're gotten rid of the better.

Or we could deem all those changes an expensive waste of time. She could always buy testosterone off the internet and then she'd pass as a man and be another invisible ftm who is no bother to anyone

A. Unisex doesn't work for everything.
B. The population % of trans people is so low that you would spend millions changing everything for it to then never get used.
C. The gov doesn't have the money to change all leisure centres, schools, hospitals etc.
D. The system we have works fine. If you pass, use the changing room you define to. If you don't go in with your biological sex.

In most cases it's just a risk to fair play.

For many fair play means not excluding people.

It means excluding men from women's sport as a very basic principle.

Numbers may be the problem. The numbers of transgender people may not warrant the planning and expense. I've heard disabled toilets/changing rooms suggested as an option in the past, but of course thats seen as encroaching on disabled people. Whatever the perfect solution is, I honestly don't know. My local swimming pool have scrapped all communal changing and have a 'village' of lockable cubicles, pretty much floor to ceiling. Some women don't like this setup for reasons I understand though I still go with DC. The numbers of men who would abuse such a setup are probably small, but the very possibility may concern women.

I've asked before what evidence there is and transgender women being abused in mens facilities. Maybe its the fear of being outed as trans more than anything, or 'validation'. Has anyone been brave enough to challenge men in such rooms, who may turn out to be very butch women?

Sarah "Individual loos would help ... disabled people"
Some disabled people perhaps but it's unlikely to help disabled people who need larger spaces and additional facilities.

SarahCarer I suspect an often overlooked problem for GNC girls which I can relate to. Just a few weeks ago I was confronted by staff at a holiday park (visiting friends for the night) after using the toilet and a couple of girls fled thinking a man was in the toilet. It took about 2 minutes to explain I am a woman, but I think he just had a problem accepting he got it wrong. But at least I am female in the biological, physical and legal sense so wasn't doing anything wrong.

Can I ask a question about the changing villages? How does that work exactly? So, individual lockable cubicles, but how do you access those? Is it off a corridor or is there a main room with the cubicles along the walls or what?

Basically several rows of cubicles, lockers directly opposite. Sort of square shaped area for 100 or so. Showers are mixed so you have to shower in bathing suit (men, women and children), only gendered rooms are the toilets. A compromise might be to have a male end and female end.

The mixed showers sound like a terrible idea.

I think there's safety in communal sexed areas for women. A row of unisex cubicle toilets off a corridor could be more dangerous.

Agree re showers although most just want to get the chlorinated water out quickly. I like the single cubicles though, communal changing sucks even with other women. Maybe we should put heads together to plan the ideal changing setup.

I think a room for men and a room for women each with cubicles ringing a communal area would be ideal.

Rinsing off the chlorinated water is great, but you could do that poolside like most outdoor pools do. Surely the whole point of having showers is so that people who want to actually shower properly before changing back into clothes can do so (using soap and not skipping their entire torso).

I'm a big fan of changing all men's loos into unisex and keeping women's for women.... solves those queuing problems in one fell swoop!

Love your advice: my solution also.

"Or we could deem all those changes an expensive waste of time. She could always buy testosterone off the internet and then she'd pass as a man and be another invisible ftm who is no bother to anyone"

I wouldn't recommend self-medication.

"I think a room for men and a room for women each with cubicles ringing a communal area would be ideal."

A few places have a mix of cubicles around a communal area where people can also change. Those who want to use a cubicle can. Personally I find them claustrophobic. I am perfectly happy to go topless on the beech so I am totally relaxed - bottoms are a work of moments. I understand others aren't comfortable and I do think a good supply of private cubicles is important, some family size.

The new pools here have changing villages which are fine. I don't care about the mixed showers. Everyone stays clothed. They have to put something in place so that cameras can't be put under/ over cubicle walls

Gibberty wrote this:

A few places have a mix of cubicles around a communal area where people can also change. Those who want to use a cubicle can. Personally I find them claustrophobic. I am perfectly happy to go topless on the beech so I am totally relaxed - bottoms are a work of moments. I understand others aren't comfortable and I do think a good supply of private cubicles is important, some family size.

So your recommendation is an area where men can stand naked while male and female children have to walk through them to reach a cubicle. Really? I need to walk past men changing into a cubicle?

The system we have works fine. If u r desperate for a wee and giving out that the toilet door has the wrong sign then just wait another half an hour.

The BBC have created 3rd spaces - gender neutral toilets apparently in addition to sex segregated spaces:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/bbc-creates-unisex-toilets-for-hundreds-of-transgender-staff-0g6mgtrfk?shareToken=376b61cac2e938270cc94d632d6f2261

your recommendation is an area where men can stand naked while male and female children have to walk through them to reach a cubicle.

Yeah. I've met men. Some of them are getting changed. At least two are admiring their own cocks and one of them is doing it with his hand...