Transgender contributors - is a third space enough for you.

[Kettlepotblackagain]

There appears to be a few transgender users and contributors on mumsnet. I’d like to ask you directly. Why aren’t you campaigning for a third space? Is it important to you to be allowed to use the women’s spaces? Is it the threat of voilence in other spaces? If so can you not see your hypocrisy?

Please directly explain to me why you are not happy to have a separate space of your own.

I read the thread yesterday about the open air baths in Malmo and there was an aspect of it that made no sense to me. There is normally a women's area, a men's area and a mixed area. Then for one day a month it is all mixed so it can be used by the queer, non-binary, trans etc. community. But why is that any different from the mixed area that is available all the time. Having a third species not seem to be enough but I don't understand why.

How do you have a private individual unisex rugby match?

EA says you can exclude from sports if there is a risk to health/ safety.

In most cases it's just a risk to fair play.

For many fair play means not excluding people.

I'd love an answer to this. I think including trans women at club level would probably have to involve changes like uncontested scrums for safety reasons. This would be a significant disadvantage to women who also play at higher levels, up to international. It would make the women's game less competitive and less appealing. There would be similar problems in other contact sports. I'm not sure that being inclusive is generally a priority in sport, being competitive is usually the ultimate aim.

Prisons You keep high risk people individually separate as they do now.

1. There isn’t enough space or facility capacity in the female estate to house even a proportion of TIM prisoners in it
2. Self ID will remove any case by case treatment and require TIMs to be in with the general population.

And before we get a ‘that never happens/won’t happen/they’re all monitored and safe’ Paris green was able to have sex with female prisoners in their cell. It does happen, it has happened and it will happen.

They don’t want third spaces - they want access to women’s spaces for validation

But why is access to a mixed space on a special day better than access to a mixed space everyday? Surely a mixed space for everyone validates no-one.

Or is it the fact that they don't want women to have anything for themselves? A third space is ok so long as the women's only space is taken away from women. The benefit of the special everyone mixed day is that the perceived advantage that women have is taken away.

TRA say they need access to women's spaces for safety, ignoring the obvious argument - well any bloke will have access so it doesn't make you any more safe. They ignore it because they know they weren't unsafe in the first place. They don't care if they have to share a space with men. The important thing is that women don't get their own space. In other words what bowl just said.

What Cordelia said, I mean

You keep high risk people individually separate as they do now.

I don't think that would work. Even guys who aren't deemed 'high risk' will rape women in prison. Even without the risk of rape, consensual relationships will mean that women get pregnant in prison.

Along with women (and some of the men) being uncomfortable sharing communal showering space, for example. I would be uncomfortable in ANY communal showering but I would be near distraught with bloody men there too!

There are a few reasons to be against mixed sex prisons. Hence having single sex prisons (until recently) in the first place.

Prisons is one of the main areas I do not think has an actual solution besides..keep single sex and maybe have a wing for people who feel they are neither sex/are trans.

The TRA narrative, currently being parroted by the government and well-placed TRA in the prison and probation services, is that ALL inmates would undergo rigorous safety assessment so that self ID will have no impact.

This ignores:
1 that a male who has never previously committed a sexual or violent crime is still a vastly greater risk to women than other women
2 that women inmates are more likely to have suffered chronic violence, trauma and abuse and should never be forced to share a cell or a shower with males
3 the enormous cost of such assessments is simply unaffordable given the straightened circumstances of the prison service
4 it subjects the entire prison service to the whim of transgender males despite the massive problems it currently suffers from which affect so many more people

Ireland has a rule whereby prisoners are housed in the estate of their birth sex. I think that’s the way to go tbh.

All inmates should be safe in prison - a single male inmate in a female prison is a danger to safety, dignity and privacy of female inmates. They simply should not be there. There may need to be units within Male prisons to cope, but simply housing men in women’s prisons is not the answer

Individual loos would help a lot, not only transgender people but also GNC people who suffer regular challenges and children at risk of GID. And Dads with their dds and disabled people and people who are very shy around all people and women who are menstruating and dealing with leakage and pregnant women with children who have no way of lifting them to the bloomin basins to wash their hands and all the women crossing their legs because the male architect didn't design enough loos into the building because he didn't care because there's always space in the men's. And men who are at risk from other men.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this Sarah, and will be right there with you when the campaign comes out!

Sadly I think fewer women will be there with us than would have been before the trans debate took off. Sadly I do suspect (not talking about anyone here btw) that some people will see it as a big change that only benefits transpeople, and so will sit on their hands. But this has been a feminist issue for a long time! Line inequality of toilets (i.e. there are always being a queue for the ladies and none for the men) is a feminist issue. And all the other things you've mentioned in your post!

If money were to be expended to upgrade facilities I think this would be a far more comprehensive solution than the creation of any (divisive, IMO) "third space".

YY Prachett

that a male who has never previously committed a sexual or violent crime is still a vastly greater risk to women than other women

This though, we know convictions for rape and sexual assault are ridiculously low, so you could (and would) have a situation where men who have actually committed multiple sexual offenses against women are shoved in with women.

Kind of similar to how the current 'rigorous' risk assessment appears to allow people who are actually currently in prison for sexual offenses against women to be in with women.

But, its just women right. Who gives a fuck? Is basically what TRAs (and much of society) say

'Women are nothing special' says the delightful daimbars

And even without conviction rates coming into it, many women do not report given how victims are treat during trials along with other reasons.

Yyy low conviction rate

'Women are nothing special' says the delightful daimbars

Where did she say that Pratchet? I've just searched the thread...

@scotsheather

The numbers of transgender people may not warrant the planning and expense. I've heard disabled toilets/changing rooms suggested as an option in the past, but of course that's seen as encroaching on disabled people.

My solution would be:

1. Disabled accessible gender-neutral family-sized stalls (which already exist in most places) to be explicitly made as THE option for people who, for whatever reason, can't use the bathroom of their sex.
2. Double the required number of those stalls in all new developments and retrofit existing facilities.

It's a lot easier to add one extra single stall than to completely redo the whole change rooms, the number of people who don't want to use the bathroom of their sex is likely to remain small (i.e. non-binary teen girls are still likely to use the women's room with their friends), and people with disabilities get double the number of accessible stalls to use most of the time.

Honestly I think we're already about to hit the global peak for this phenomenon. As soon as people's mums start identifying as non-binary or genderqueer it won't be cool any more and the numbers will drastically reduce overnight.

On the science thread - is that the one you were looking at?

Oh, I thought you meant this thread - I was looking for context. Tsk for bringing it up where she wouldn't be able to defend it [lighthearted!]

It seems that biologically women aren't that special

It was gibberty, renowned contributor of a 'significant chunk' of equality law, not Daimbars. I'd love to know if Daim and other TRA agree or disagree. I can link them to this thread if you like.

But, Bloodmagic, as others have said, some people don't want a special facility, or a gender-neutral facility, they particularly want to enter the space of the gender they now identify as.

Agree that the voice of an incredibly small number of people is very, very loud. Anyone would think that every other person is busy changing sex or identifying as the opposite gender. A huge amount of public money is being wasted on an issue which is a bit of a non-issue, really, and will just result in disgusting perverts like Ian Huntley (who is about as transgender as I am) being able to side-step justice or allow male weirdoes free reign to wander around women's spaces willy-nilly (every pun intended).

I don't think existing accesible loos should be used for male people who wish to use the female facilities.

Disabled people fought so hard for those spaces. And we just know that most places would not bother with the refitting and such to provide double the amount. They just wouldn't. Excuses would come, and even if the excuses did not come, doubling would take time and in the meantime disabled people would have to share their own fought for spaces with people who could use the regular loos of their own sex.

And thats before even getting into how transactivists do not want their own areas, they want into the womens. So they would not use an additional unisex space anyway and would continue to force their way into the womens.

I don't know how to solve the problem tbh. It all went under the radar for so long, and everything was working fine. But then, transactivists, and AGPs broke it by taking the piss.

order-order.com/2018/06/11/libdem-policy-transphobic-call-ian-huntley-ian-huntley/

Sigh, another prisoner wanting to change prisons.
Can't link to Twitter cos I don't follow alisdair