Can we be honest about the need for affirmation?

[FortunateCookie]

I posted some of this on the misgendering thread but it was lost in amongst everything.

I asked on that thread whether refusing to affirm someone’s gender identity was a big deal or not, and many people thought it was, and that it could lead to mental health problems and possibly suicide.

If non- affirmation is so damaging then it also follows that positive affirmation would be extremely rewarding and fulfilling.

It seems obvious that this could lead to serious conflicts of interests. For example, in the case of the woman who asked for a female nurse to carry out her smear test, and was faced with a trans nurse.

Here, when the patients needs should be paramount, she instead becomes either a cause of huge distress, or a vehicle to experience the reward of validation. Either way, it is difficult to see how her needs could be centred against the pull of such a powerful motivation. Do eg hospitals, rape crisis centres recognise this dynamic?

Either it is a big deal that a trans person has their identity affirmed, in which case it should also be recognised that this can cause conflicts of interest in situations where affirmation or not is a factor (ie performing smear tests, working in a women’s refuge)

Or it’s not that big of a deal if a trans person has their identity affirmed and therefore they won’t be offended when a patient asks for a female nurse to carry out their smear.

Which is it?

some people's motivations I should have said.

As always, any TW who insists their right to perform a smear (for example) overrides patient comfirt and sense of safety is the very sort of person who ahould not be allowed anywhere near women.

Exactly.

@Fortunatecookie

Thank you for bringing this up. I hadn't considered it but it is important.

If people want to claim that misgendering is this terrible deeply upsetting thing that makes people kill themselves, then no transwomen can EVER be a suitable healthcare provider for a woman.

Imagine an OBGYN who comes into the room and before the consultation he says "Just so we're clear, if you upset me or refuse anything on the basis that I'm a man its possible that i'll kill myself, or at the very least make a huge fuss and tell everyone that you're an awful person. Now what can I do for you?"

The patient CAN'T be expected to even ask for what they want in that situation, and they can't be considered to be given patient centered care at all, no matter what happens next. I'm fine with a male OBGYN, I have one, I'm not fine with a male OBGYN I feel I can't say no to without creating a whole big thing.

Transwoman healthcare providers are obviously not saying that stuff to their patients, but we as a society are saying it all the time and even making laws about it. So when a woman goes to see a doctor and its turns out he's a transwoman, how can she be expected to ask for what she needs? How can we ever consider HER capable of receiving patient centred care in that situation?

(not saying a transperson isn't capable of PROVIDING patient centred care, that individual transperson might not even give half a shit about misgendering, but in a society where we're told over and over that not pretending transwomen are women is basically killing them and is a hatecrime, how can a woman advocate for herself enough to RECIEVE patient centred care?)

bewilderness - yes, the shouting at a group of bow headed women was disturbing viewing. The sense of fear was palpable.

Good point Bloodmagic.

Gib hates women simple as

If I asked the man in the street do you think it's bigoted for me to request a female do an intimate exam I very much doubt the man would think that. Your average man would totally get it.

Yet here we are being told we are bigoted for refusing a male. Ridiculous.

I don't actually mind a man giving me exams I probably wouldn't mind a transwomen either - I trust that they are a hcp and just doing their job.
I would however object to a transwomen midwife.

I don't need to justify my reason, the same as people not wanting transwomen to give them intermate exams don't need to justify their reason.

Women do not have to accept intermate care from men.

I think for some transwomen, clearly affirmation is a conflict of interest. If their personal affirmation wasn't important, why are they pushing to do things that may require an actual female, such as midwife, rape centre etc. Why not start a transwomen rape centre if its not about affirmation and you just want to help victims. Why not be a nurse but say your happy not to give smears - I can't imagine it's a highlight of the job anyway.

Just catching up with the thread this morning.

@Bloodmagic

If people want to claim that misgendering is this terrible deeply upsetting thing that makes people kill themselves, then no transwomen can EVER be a suitable healthcare provider for a woman....we as a society are saying [that validation is vital and misgendering is hate speech] all the time and even making laws about it. So when a woman goes to see a doctor and its turns out he's a transwoman, how can she be expected to ask for what she needs?

Yes! This is exactly the point I am trying to make! It’s not about individual HCPs and their professionalism, it’s about the patient or refuge client whose care is now completely compromised because of the message trans people are hammering home at every opportunity: “tranwomen are women!”

I don't understand why posters like Gibb talk about transwomen being 'outed' that suggests they really think women haven't noticed they are really a man. Because in the mythical situation where a Transwoman genuinely passes it wouldn't really be an obvious issue.

Which leads me to the conclusion we are damaging transwomen's mental health by being polite and using female pronouns since it then causes them more trauma when someone is less polite or doesn't realise they were pretending to be a woman.

@GibbertyFlibbert

^We aren't objecting because the nurse is trans
We are objecting because the nurse is male^

”That's bigotry.“

This perfectly demonstrates the conflict of interest I am talking about. To you, to call a tranwoman male is bigotry. But there are many, many women who do not and can not see transwomen as female.

You can call it bigotry if you like, but all you are doing is making my exact point for me. Women who dont believe that transwomen are women will have their care compromised because they know a trans health care provider will view them as a bigot.

Sarah would you like to answer the OP’s scenario instead of going on about fucking toilets?

The OPs original scenario is not particularly helpful as the transwomen I know would change jobs to avoid being put in this position. "Fucking toilets" are unavoidable for transwomen so a more useful scenario.

the transwomen I know would change jobs to avoid being put in this position.

Because they have enough self awareness to recognise that there is a conflict of interests here. But there are some that don’t.

The OPs original scenario is not particularly helpful as the transwomen I know would change jobs to avoid being put in this position. "Fucking toilets" are unavoidable for transwomen so a more useful scenario.

But the OP raised a specific scenario. This scenario has happened. It's not about you and the TIMs you know or whether you think it's "helpful". How arrogant. It would be polite to engage with that in addition to banging on about toilets for the millionth time.

I can well believe discussing the original scenario isn't "helpful" to your agenda, though.

The issue is less about affirmation and more about not being outed

Sorry this was commented way way upthread but this gaslighting drives me nuts.
Being outed?

In the case of the patient requesting a female nurse when a TIM was sent, the patient knew they were male. They were "outed" just by arriving.
In the given example of a TIM using the male loos causing confusion for the men this is nonsense because they cause confusion to women by using the women's too. Women know they need to be polite and not say anything, but we do actually know a male when we see one.

It's not fair on women to be constantly expected to affirm another person's delusion.

@SarahAr Who you personally know and how you believe they would react is irrelevant.
Claiming the situation given is 'not helpful is dishonest. Its a situation a woman was put into. It wasn't supposed to be helpful, it was factual.

Stop playing on women's socialisation to be nice, inclusive or helpful and engage honestly.

I can well believe discussing the original scenario isn't "helpful" to your agenda, though.

Indeed. The gap between identity and reality is threatening. Deflect at all costs.

I would suggest to all feminists - including those who don't give a stuff who's holding the speculum at their smear test - to request, very specifically, a same-sex HCP for any intimate procedure. The common sense thing is for providers to assume such jobs are single sex only as default.

It would also help if the non-abusive trans people came to collect the abusive strand amid their number who would even think of applying for such a job. Interesting that Gibb would rather deflect to toilet-toilet-toilet than to confirm to us all they are not part of that abusive strand of trans people. Says a lot.

The OPs original scenario is not particularly helpful as the transwomen I know would change jobs to avoid being put in this position.

The original scenario is what the thread is about. If you don't want to comment on that scenario, post on another thread or start your own.

Actually, toilets are helpful to this debate. They prove the need for validation.
If trans people didn't need validation they'd campaign for a third space.

Absolutely UpstartCrow.

Misgendering me is deeply damaging for my mental health and can lead to suicide so everyone MUST recognise my gender identity
does not square with

I just need to pee

If it was just about peeing a third space would be welcomed.

Unless having melanin in her skin also confers a penis on that hypothetical black nurse, she's not a Schrödinger's Rapist potential threat to women. She will not be able to make a woman pregnant.

Also, there's a time and a place and an agent for challenging racism, and "in an examination room, during a smear test, by the black HCP" is not it. If I were black and working as a HCP, why would I want to be forced to treat a patient who hated me because of my skin colour and is going to be horrid to me and treat me like less than human when the work I'm doing could save that patient's life? It adds another burden to an already-marginalised person's life if they are required to treat someone who thinks they shouldn't be here. It's not the job of black people to fix racism. And TBH if a racist white woman [screencappers, be honest and take the full post, don't quotemine] refuses treatment unless the HCP is white, it's important that she still gets care [screencappers, take the full post, don't quotemine] and so if there is a white HCP available [screencappers, take the full post, don't quotemine] then she should get one, [screencappers, take the full post, don't quotemine] even though I would condemn utterly her racist motivation for wanting that. Sorry about all the square brackets, but I could totally see this paragraph being screencapped and trimmed and tweeted out of context as fake evidence that mumsnet are the evilz.

FYI there are circumstances when I can imagine a black person asking for a black HCP, e.g. for counselling after a racist incident, and I fully uphold their right to do this. This isn't about "how you identify" but "what you need to cope with how other people treat you".

I think everyone should be allowed to pursue a career in healthcare and patients should have a say in who they want their hcp to be. I always ask for a female hcp, so far I don't think I've encountered any trans women so can only say that theoretically speaking I don't oppose to being treated by a TW. All that I care about as a patient is that I have a choice and my choices are respected.

Hospital environment is slightly different though, you generally get whoever is available at the time.

Need for affirmation should never, ever impact patient care. The patient is central, they are the one in a vulnerable position in all healthcare interactions.

I am highly suspicious of anyone using such scenarios to validate themselves or to push boundaries or make points. That is putting personal ego ahead of professional patient care.

It's also the other way round. What about women police officers, prisons officers, customs etc who have been requested as a female searcher by a Self ID or pre op trans'woman'. Should she be forced into it?

No she shouldn’t. That works both ways. Female on female searching.

Again it’s using highly personal situations with potential to cause distress to push boundaries and make a point.

No one who does that is, in my opinion, a safe person to interact with.