How accurately do humans identify biological sex?

[Acorninspring]

I often see the claim that people are very good at identifying biological sex, regardless of what gender someone is presenting as. I agree with this. However, I did wonder if we actually had any empirical evidence to back it up? Any research studies etc? It would also be interesting, if for example, men and women were significantly different in their ability to identify biological sex.

This is going back a few decades but I had a university friend who did a study for her PhD on the ability of young babies to distinguish the sex of other babies. And yes, basically babies were really good at it. It's body language that's the giveaway.

Reading the thread one could get the impression that humans have a pretty good inbuilt ability to distinguish between the sexes that then gets degraded by people learning the rules of gender.

I agree its a lot about body language. In my last job I took the Piccadilly line home and, I don't know why but, I'd quite often see an mtf person in my compartment.

They always seemed quite nervous. Most people would be slouching and scrolling on their phone but these trans people would be quite stiff, scanning round to see if anyone was looking at them. Size of hands and feet would confirm it but it was always the weird, un-relaxed body language I noticed first.

Hand / feet size is the usual give away for transwomen. Ditto Adam's apple (or neck scarf to cover it). Then add in height and gait and any doubt is usually cleared up very quickly

Babies know the difference between men and women, as do young children and animals. Why wouldn't adult humans be able to tell the difference too? (I think with children it's more often a lack of language skills that leads to he instead of she, in the same way that they might refer to themselves in the third person, or say "me go outside" not "I")

Re the photo posted upthread of MB - of course a single, posed and professionally lit (possibly edited) photo is going to look flattering. Look at this photo of Tara Hudson to see someone who looks female at first glance.

Now look at this photo taken when Hudson was attending court (that's Hudson's mother on the left). Much more obvious that Hudson is a transwoman when seen next to someone else, particularly if the other person is female.

The person in the first photo looks like Hudson's mother.

It’s called “uncanny valley” and is usually used to express the disquiet experienced faced with e.g. extremely human like robots or gorillas when they use human expressions.

The uncanny is a major trope in Gothic fiction spilling over into later related forms like horror films. So things that are nearly human - dolls, manequins, ventriloquists' dummies, vampires, frankenstein's monster, zombies and sometimes - although obviously these things ARE human - small children, babies, mad people.

I don't think androgyny is at all common. I said this on another thread the other day I've maybe been completely unsure about someone's sex once or twice.

Browsing Instagram recently, I saw a Twitter thread of MB's saying they'd been on a photo shoot when a group of guys started at first to cat call MB then spotted MB was trans and started insulting MB. I'm not on Twitter and didn't check if it was genuine but it seems like there may be a lot of truth in the idea that its easier to create a certain impression in a photo than irl.

I'm not sure scientific studies are needed. It'd be one of those "Oh look scientists have discovered that humans need water" moments

Yeah i think this too.

I also agree with others that in kids it would not be noticeable but from puberty onwards, I think most people can distinguish between the sexes fairly accurately regardless of what the person was wearing and such. I cannot see any studies actually ever being done on this, as its a no brainer.

Terfsup - I think Hudson put on weight in prison and stopped the bleached hair, and as a result looks more like their mother.

(Am reminded of the Oscar Wilde quote about all women turning into their mother, which is their tragedy, men seldom turn into their mother, which is their's!)

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of truly androgenous people I have met over my life: I've met butch women who look very masculine until you see them move or speak, and effeminate men who could make a decent fist of passing if they wanted until they move or speak. The trans people I've met (knowingly) have all been obviously trans

Fair enough explanation, OW.

Yes quite a difference Olennas. is that really TH though I thought this was her www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/tara-hudson-the-harrowing-reality-of-being-a-trans-woman-in-an-a/

Seems confusing, who is who? I know this is not really relevant but I'm curious now. This is Tara with dark hair:
choiceradio.co.uk/transgender-prisoner-tara-hudson-calls-for-reform/

This is her mother Jackie:
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/614886/Tara-Hudson-Transgender-Jackie-Brooklyn-Prison-Bristol-Magistrates-Female-Assault

Now look at this photo taken when Hudson was attending court (that's Hudson's mother on the left). Much more obvious that Hudson is a transwoman when seen next to someone else, particularly if the other person is female

I'm not sure the very tall, skinny person behind Tara's mother is Tara Hudson. I think that photograph might be of a supporter at the appeal.

Ah. That would explain why the two people look so different. I can see the similarity between Hudson and h** mother; however, the very tall person in the photograph bears no resemblance to either person.

I think it gets much harder to tell as people get older - I guess post-menopause when hormones alter, but in this society where people work to maintain a 'youthful look', I would imagine it might take until people were 70+ to pass. In typical aging, a man's voice gets higher, a woman will lose some of her high notes. Skin quality changes, height changes, hair patterns change, gait changes, less fat deposits around face and hands. I've often thought that my older patients can be much harder to spot as male/female immediately. But I am certain that some trans people would pass with me at most ages; obviously I do see trans people and the ones I spot are really obvious within a few seconds, but which ones am I missing?

Aha we maybe have a mystery interloper lol.

you can just always tell. always. it's something quite primal.

Yes, we can always tell. Nuances register quite quickly.

It's one thing to have official still photos - coiffed, artful make-up, posed for the camera, and then photoshop.

It's totally another to watch movement, to hear voice, and to smell.

Re Suited's video, Bergdorf looks like a man who's had plastic surgery, so no surprises that a child assumed he was male. Suited is not a bad parent for not training her son to assume that anyone with long hair is female.

On the main topic, of course we can tell what sex people are in the vast majority of cases. Even with the people most would refer to as androgynous you can usually tell their sex at the second glance if not at the first. One thing that I have noted is that there seems to be a correlation between autism and not being good at telling sex by looking at faces and thus relying more on superficial gender markers, which might be an interesting thing to look into in terms of how many young trans people are on the autism spectrum. Maybe they think most people can't tell because they can't tell themselves.

I think it becomes most obvious when watching them perform womanhood. The artificially soft voice, the ‘ladylike’ poses, the demure demeanour, most regular women don’t behave like the parody of womanhood that we see played out by those who are trying desperately to pass. That’s when I think the uncanny valley thing happens - even when someone looks very feminine, the ‘acting’ is glaringly obvious and jarring.

I’m sure there are those who pass, but I think that women especially are able to spot them as ‘not us’ more easily than men can spot them as ‘not women’.

Sometimes I think that some men would get an erection over a traffic cone if someone glued fake boobs to it and drew lips on with lipstick a few inches above, and then popped a blonde wig on top.

The fact that some men's sexuality is broken in that particular way tells us absolutely nothing about how women perceive sex.

Angry I think you’re right, sometimes you will see guys banging on about how gorgeous a woman is when you can see that she’d be pretty plain without all the make up, but has blonde hair and big tits so that is shorthand for gorgeous, even if she has a face like a bag of spanners.

Probably doesn't help that these guys get all their "passing" tips from other guys. I mean, you'd think with so many coming out as "trans" these days, there's be a huge market demand from TIMs for training by women in how to come across as less masculine, that they'd be lining up to ask our advice on what gets them clocked by us.

But since most of them are hetero males, of course they still carry the arrogant belief that they know better than us how to do the womanning. (And they're too busy telling us that their brings me isn't 98% immediately obvious to us.)

Fat fingers/autocoriander-fail: *Too busy telling us their being male isn't 98% immediately obvious to us.

Good point, maybe that’s why it doesn’t ring true - they’re playing at being the type of woman that men want. Whereas we are happy to be brash and unladylike, to talk in a throwaway manner without sounding like we’re trying to say everything very deliberately.