How accurately do humans identify biological sex?

[Acorninspring]

I often see the claim that people are very good at identifying biological sex, regardless of what gender someone is presenting as. I agree with this. However, I did wonder if we actually had any empirical evidence to back it up? Any research studies etc? It would also be interesting, if for example, men and women were significantly different in their ability to identify biological sex.

My DGF's was aggressive to men and the only woman he ever went for was wearing her boyfriends jumper.

This is my favourite post on MN today. Thanks MrsTerryPratchett!

My poor GF. Being maligned on MN

OK terfs up I will do research elsewhere as I am annoying you. You're just not very clear when I am giving an example of other research which I assumed was fairly standard with hundreds of variables and thousands of participants. Nothing you're saying makes sense to me.

My 10 year old DS walked in when I was watching Munroe Bergdorf being interviewed by Andrew Neil

He studied the screen for maybe 10 seconds, and said "He must spend a lot of time on his hair”

Interesting. My DP said, on seeing MB on the genderquake debate “well what’s she got to do with anything?” I also wasn’t sure, so googled her and was surprised to see she was trans until she opened her mouth However when I found out she’d spent £££s no facial feminisation surgery I guess that makes sense.

I think in the natural world without make up and very gendered clothing I’d be 95% accurate at guessing sex. There are a few androgynous types that don’t fit into either category neatly, but like other posters, I reckon one sniff of their armpits and I’d know!

I also have good gaydar - have never found any the famous men who have since come out attractive, always preferred Andrew Ridgley to George Michael in their Wham days! My DP says I’m the most heterosexual person he’s ever known though, I am very turned on by all the markers of maleness, love the smell of him all over and love body hair, even back hair so maybe I am hypersensitive to these things?

spent £££s on* facial feminisation

It is hard wired into our brains to realise very quickly when something is either not as it first seems or is close to human but not quite (I feel this with ventriloquist dummies!).

It’s called “uncanny valley” and is usually used to express the disquiet experienced faced with e.g. extremely human like robots or gorillas when they use human expressions.

Disclaimer - I am in no way making any comment on trans people not being human before anyone twists my words. The phrase is now widely used outside the robotic community.

Uncanny valley! That's fascinating but also sets nerves jangling:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Why would there be too many variables to do research looking at whether individuals correctly identify sex? Fundamentally there is only one variable of interest. Of course people are diverse and present in many different ways but apart from children pre puberty or those who deliberately work to disguise their presentation (which may or may not include hormones or surgery) it is unusual not to be able to correctly identify someone's sex after spending any time with them. I would expect this to be even more the case in situations in heightened risk or when people are on the pull.

I have worked with a couple of adults where I couldn’t actually have called their gender. Neither were trans but I genuinely do live in an area with a lot of genetic issues due to a history of in breeding. This is not to infer that being trans is a genetic issue or due to inbreeding.

One person I worked quite closely with and other colleagues would often misgender him. Thankfully he had a very male name so there could be no ambiguity.

That uncanny Valley link is really interesting. Personally I think we just feel slightly tricked, plus the natural wariness of someone who doesn't seem like yourself

There has been only one case when I have been unable to discern someone's sex.

The last time was in a hotel. Another guest was checking in as I was in the lobby waiting for a taxi. The person was quite striking-looking: I am guessing the person was Japanese, had long hair and was wearing a man's dark suit, a white dress shirt and brogues. They were turned at an angle to me so I couldn't see any more physical characteristics and I didn't hear them speak.

I remember this clearly as the person was so beautiful - his / her face was just gorgeous and the gender ambiguity made them even more eye-catching.

Several times on public transportation I have seen women who look / dress very androgynously but they still were markedly female.

I think voice is a big indicator - and how things are said, as much as what is said.
We are a bunch of arty hippies fairly alternative family, with some "unusual" friends, so DS doesn't automatically assume long hair = woman.

Yes I also think it's harder to maintain the illusion when walking etc

The pet thing us currently annoying me. I'm getting a lot of pet food ads for, I think Lily's kitchen on my Facebook. They're selling tins of food in aid of Stonewall this month and one post that keeps popping up is how pets love unconditionally and don't see gender.

I am desperate to write underneath it how a lot of dogs in particular are absolutely fecking terrified of men if they've had experience of aggressive males. It's bullshit that pets don't judge based on sex. It's a basic safety precaution that mammals can discern sex.

It's not just dogs: I had a cat who loved men and snubbed women.

Oh - and Lily's Kitchen will never receive a penny from me if they are raising money for Stonewall.

I mean, come on, how can one dolphin figure out the sex of another one, they all look practically the same!

Just find out which ones are asking for a (fish) sammich, and which dolphins are rolling their eyes. That ought to do it I reckon.

Why don't you screenshoot it-I'd love to see it- and then you could add your own words and make a mime. It would be fun to have a mime made from trans propaganda.

The ones hogging the remote control are male.

I think there are so many give away a and we take in so much in a few seconds but at the same time it’s sometimes hard to pin point what exactly

Like when you know something isn’t right about a situation but what that is at times is hard to articulate

Often it’s size of person but even when someone who can pass in photos and has had extensive treatment and surgery just something about them when you see them talk/walk/move is different (and nothing can be done with hand, width and shape of shoulders and feet size)

This is why I so strongly object to trans women regardless of what treatment they have using women on spaces unisex need to be provided. Why should girls and women be in a position where they feel comfortable and then they are second guess

And no Paris Lees we haven’t been sharing spaces for years unnoticed we just haven’t spoken up as girls are often conditioned to accept and not upset others, and as if many women would bother reporting the issue we just wouldn’t return

I picture an ad with a cute doggie on it in my mind's eye. I think I may have got the wrong end.

I had a friend at school who was female but dressed/hair cut like a boy, at 16 she was still being constantly being told to get out of the girls changing rooms/loos by staff who happened to come across her and called ‘young man’ by all the staff! I also have another female friend who was constantly ‘miss gendered’ because of the way she dressed/looked. I don’t think we are 100% accurate, I’ve seen people out and about who I genuinely am not sure about.

The ones hogging the remote control are male.

Not in this house!

Here you go

Not that surprising that you have brought your child up to rudely misgender people though is it.

How could the child rudely misgender this person? Surely they saw someone on TV that they perceived to be male? You could argue mistaken but how could they be being rude for thinking that a male born person was male if they hadn't been told they had to think otherwise? Irrespective of what the person was wearing, since what you wear doesn't make up your gender.