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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Dark and stormies all round! Bluestocking piss up

992 replies

QuentinSummers · 08/06/2018 23:05

A friendly place for feminist or general chit chat. Welcome all!

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LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 14:14

on GG comparing her experience to others

I think I had a rant about an anti-feminist friend a while ago on here

I have actually "broken up" with her. I didn't say anything about the feminist aspect but I did realise there was a major red line for me in that she doesn't seem to have any issues about how women are treated and because she was assaulted and just thinks "that's life" she thinks other women should "stop making a fuss".

ErrolTheDragon · 10/06/2018 14:36

It sounds something like saying, not all soldiers who've been through the same situation suffer PTSD so the ones that do should man up.Confused

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/06/2018 14:41

The 6 penetrations is a telegram that her father sent to her mother on the eve of their wedding if memory serves me right! GG thought there was nothing wrong with him writing those crude remarks and used it to illustrate something or other

because she was assaulted and just thinks "that's life" she thinks other women should "stop making a fuss" - that's exactly what GG was saying. She diagnosed the problem correctly with the current legal system in that the victim is a piece of evidence i.e. the case isn't about her finding justice but being used as evidence by the state - and treated as such - like a piece of property being fingerprinted. So in my terms, the current process isn't victim centred and hence not fit for purpose and I wouldn't recommend any woman being a witness at her own rape trial unless she has strong independent corroboration of what took place. The deck is too stacked against her.

GG described some of her own rape and I imagine by what she said that she hasn't debriefed it properly because whilst she is clear he was responsible, her articulation indicated she didn't have a coherent narrative of what happened - she seemed to not understand she had been targeted and groomed and then spent a few minutes pondering about the rapist and that he must be ill and needed treatment. She didn't have the anger she should have - and she acknowledged that - like she was looking in at herself but not feeling it - intellectualising the experience - classic for a woman who hasn't had the benefit of informed therapy to get to her anger- she's defending men.

And she basically inferred that if you didn't get on with your life, you were at fault and letting the perpetrator win plus buying into the "all women are victims" narrative. She also ridiculed the rape statistics of 70% of victims suffering PTSD and compared it with 20% of returning vets having the same diagnosis. She then said she didn't believe a rape would cause as much damage as watching your mate being blown up by an IED and hence didn't believe the statistics.

It was a very poorly conceived stance that she couldn't defend when challenged and she changed the subject many times when she couldn't justify her stance. I am very disappointed she has stepped into this arena when she hasn't the credentials to understand the impact of her hurtful and misinformed remarks on victims. The interviewer basically gave up trying to pin her down on how the legal process needed to change plus why she defended the perpetrators - at one point GG said she felt sorry for a horrendous rapist in Sydney because his career was destroyed (he was not convicted). Rosie Boycott the interviewer said she felt that was just desserts for what he had done and she felt no sympathy for him and couldn't understand why GG would. GG didn't respond.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 10/06/2018 14:44
LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 17:32

Thanks woman, that's really helpful

I'm not looking forward to her book being published, based on what she seems to be saying. I say "seems" because I'm struggling to get my head around it.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 20:50

Jesus Christ how dare people
dismiss Greer? They wouldn't be where they are without her. I am so bloody angry about this. I might need to drink heavily........

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 20:52

"She makes contemporary feminists look like midgets"

LighthouseSouth · 10/06/2018 21:01

Bertrand, if you mean me, I am not dismissing her. I'm worried that she's changing to a "poor men" stance. I know full well I wouldn't be where I am without her but I cannot ignore what she is saying at present.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:03

"Why is sexual display part of the job?"

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:07

I'm not meaning anyone -I'm sorry. I'm just raging generally.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/06/2018 21:18

I wish we could let people be human beings. Germaine Greer has said amazing insightful things beautifully in her time, but she is still human and will sometime talk bollocks.

Admitting someone is a fallible human who sometimes talks bollocks doesn't diminish the amazing things she has said/done at other times.

BertrandRussell · 10/06/2018 21:31

Yes, of course she talked bollocks sometimes. She's been talking for 60 years. But there are people who've talked more bollocks than her when they've only been talking for 6 months.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 10/06/2018 22:12

indeed. And Greer has an enormous fanbase of people that hang on her every word because of her track record for saying original incisive things. Yet that means when she talks bollocks it will be heard more widely than a person talking bollocks who is forgotten after their 15 minutes of fame.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 11/06/2018 04:34

I disagree - there's a difference between someone talking bullocks and a very misinformed, harmful to many women victims of rape stance - and why is it so awful to criticise GG?

No ones dismissing all her work from what I read, just critiquing her current work - and what's wrong with that? Is she beyond criticism?

I don't understand the concern - I don't need to defend GG as she is very capable of doing that herself - however many victims are voiceless and her current stance feels like another boot being put in- as many victims on Twitter are attesting to.

LighthouseSouth · 11/06/2018 12:01

Woman, exactly.

ILikeyourHairyHands · 12/06/2018 21:13

It seems no-one's around and propping up the bar, but I'm a bottle down so I'll wade straight in.

I think what Greer was saying was that rape is unfortunately and generally a pretty fucking mundane crime, the majority of rapes are perpetrated without the use of violence (and yes, unwanted penetration with a penis is violence, but for the sake of argument she is using violence in this context to mean force).

Most rapes are committed within relationships or to people known to the perpetrator. Stranger rapes are statistically rare when looked at as a whole.

So, I think what GG is actually saying is, bring the bar for prosecution down, make it easier for women who have been raped in relationships or very undramatic ways to report and be taken seriously.

Make it so they are not dragged through the courts and treated as evidence and their lives and behaviour dissected in such damaging ways.

However, if this were to happen, sentences would have to be changed if the bar was lowered and prosecution was more likely. Her point being, rape should be prosecuted more widely, women shouldn't be stigmatized, BUT rape itself and the societal attitudes towards rapists would then be a powerful deterrent NOT to rape.

I've been raped, both by a casual acquaintance and my first husband. I didn't report it in either case because although I was absolutely raped and felt a powerful sense of injustice and fucking hatred for those men, I knew the legal process, as it stands, would not have aided 'me' to continue with my life. I would have been left stigmatised and damaged by an attempted prosecution. As it is, I have moved on without too much bother but had the legal system been different I would most certainly have reported both of those bastards.

QuentinSummers · 12/06/2018 22:31

I agree with GG on this. Have said on multiple threads I would like to see a crime of something like "reckless penetration" so it's easier to prosecute rapes. At the moment the bar is so high that men basically get away with it, that isn't good for anyone.
If a man had to show how he hadn't been reckless I.e. made sure he had consent it would make a big difference.

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smithsinarazz · 12/06/2018 23:41

People who think for themselves will always talk bollocks from time to time. Sometimes Greer is right, sometimes she's wrong. In this case, she's totally wrong, from what i've heard.
My mum used to have to examine rape victims. She told me that "rape is never a crime of passion. It's always a crime of power." Not just bad sex. Not just fumbling. A man, exerting power over a woman. Always.

ErrolTheDragon · 12/06/2018 23:41

'Make it so they are not dragged through the courts and treated as evidence and their lives and behaviour dissected in such damaging ways.'

I'm missing something here - even if the bar and penalties were lower, how would this be avoided? Even if the 'it's easier to get a conviction for manslaughter than murder' argument is true, there still has to be evidence and in the case of rape, how can this not include the woman herself?

ILikeyourHairyHands · 13/06/2018 00:14

Balance of probailty Erol, if a woman says she was raped, the law should believe her.

At the moment that goes against her because rape is seen as so heinous against men, the woman has to prove she was raped.

Flip it, if rape was seen as socially heinous it should be up to men not to rape rather than women to prove they were raped.

Terfulike · 13/06/2018 00:24

I feel about GG pretty much what I feel about my ex husband. Still love him, still value the 20 years, yet...we're not such a good fit any more.

ErrolTheDragon · 13/06/2018 00:33

For it to be 'balance of probability' rather than 'proved beyond reasonable doubt', that has to mean civil rather than criminal law, doesn't it?

www.inbrief.co.uk/legal-system/difference-between-civil-criminal-law/

Not sure how that would work for rape... who would organise and pay for the action, and what could the penalties be?

QuentinSummers · 13/06/2018 08:17

I think the justice system should do more to protect vulnerable witnesses including rape complainants.
This link suggests some ways that could be done
www.thejournal.ie/rape-trial-evidence-3947001-Apr2018/

But if there was a "reckless penetration" crime then the man would have to prove either he didn't penetrate or that he had consent. It moves the burden to him where at the moment it seems to be the woman has to prove she didn't consent which is all wrong.

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womanformallyknownaswoman · 13/06/2018 08:29

As can be seen by the verdicts of most rape prosecutions, men are protected and their offending and victimisation of women minimised and downplayed. The whole premise of making rape easier to prosecute and then men will have societal condemnation as a consequence is flawed.

Those same people who find men not guilty will also continue to excuse men's abhorrent offending - rape is not reckless - that so offensive to most victims - it's about male violence power and control- it's planned to ensure the target is vulnerable - opinions. about "reckless and bad sex" are not borne out by research nor the specialists' views - how many rape crisis experts / employees have spoken out in support of GG's proposals- their silence is deafening for a reason

BeyondSceptical · 13/06/2018 08:38

Morning all, checking in with a very large coffee. Nice to see (well, not nice but ykwim...) a few people commenting on feeling odd atm, my mh is all over the place atm too - swinging from fine to verging on suicidal and back again at breakneck speed. Wonder if there is something in the air...?