Paris Lees interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 now on.

[R0wantrees]

Just listening...

I did feel really sad for Paris when speaking about all their toys being literally taken away. That was genuinely heartbreaking and no child deserves to be abused like that. I just don't see what it's got to do with that same boy growing up needing to get their penis into female only spaces.

I thought of Paris the child last night, it's not nice at all for Paris the child to have experienced.

It's sad that Paris is not taking out frustration on Dad or undergoing therapy, that instead views us as the little girl who was gifted their childhood toys. That by taking away things women value, somehow it makes the toy incident better for Paris to live with. What odd things the human mind does in reaction to unresolved trauma.

PL's response to even the most gentle questioning was telling. The interview broke down pretty much. Insisting that NR wasn't allowed to ask any questions revealed the cult like nature of this belief system, and neatly illustrated the way TRAs refuse to explain their claims or enter into debate. Gender critical feminists are perfectly prepared to debate. TRAs don't dare to.

It reminded me of the TV panel discussion when TIM Zoey Tur threatened to send Ben Shapiro home in an ambulance.

I was struck by NR's hesitation when challenged to describe PL as a woman. He deflected, and spoke of courtesy/consideration. TIM often seem to think that people actually agree they're woman when people are only being polite.

I know two TIM, one is part of my social circle, the other is far closer. Neither pass. No one uses she or her when referring to them in their absence though we're all very polite to their faces. I imagine this is common.

I was struck by NR's hesitation when challenged to describe PL as a woman. He deflected, and spoke of courtesy/consideration. TIM often seem to think that people actually agree they're woman when people are only being polite.

I know two TIM, one is part of my social circle, the other is far closer. Neither pass. No one uses she or her when referring to them in their absence though we're all very polite to their faces. I imagine this is common.

Yes it is common practice, polite to the person, then reveal what is really thought when they aren't around. It's not just behaviour reserved for TIMs, it happens for many reasons.

A family member plays sport with a TIM, who remains on a male team, the men are polite to the TIM, then laugh at them behind their back. That is the reality of human nature and not only about transitioning people, it happens for many reasons.

Ergh laughing at them?? At someone doing their best to live life in a way that's tolerable for them and hurting nobody??

PL's description of the torture they went through as a child being told that they were too feminine, that being feminine was the worst thing possible for a boy and that they were never in any way acceptable as the sex they were because of their feminine characteristics, was really heartbreaking. I admire and respect the fact that PL has made a success of their life. I would love to have PL as an ally in gender critical thinking, maybe one day either they or I will change our thinking to the point where this will be possible.

and the old ones will be dead soon

Bearing in mind what happened to Linda Bellos (interviewed by the Police under caution etc), shouldn't we be claiming that this is a veiled threat, that we feel threatened by PL?!

Ergh laughing at them?? At someone doing their best to live life in a way that's tolerable for them and hurting nobody??

I don't know what you expect me to do? I am not playing sport being nice, then laughing at this person behind their back.

Why would this situation be any different to others that happen?

Do you expect the same from me when this male relative laughs at other people?

Am I expected to stop people laughing at those who believe the earth is flat behind their backs?

Looking at Twitter it seems there's a lot of comments from people who think that Lees handled it well and Robinson was out of line... mostly from general listeners as well, not those who appear to be on one side of the debate.

I think if I was a casual listener with no background knowledge I would have been entirely disposed to feel great sympathy with PL too, and wonder why NR wasn't being more accommodating of the courteous pretence that PL is a woman - no one could fail to be moved by the story of that unhappy little boy. It's a shame there was no mention of the wider implications of the TRA need for validation, and the cost to women and girls.

Paris... views us as the little girl who was gifted their childhood toys. That by taking away things women value, somehow it makes the toy incident better for Paris to live with.

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.

Of the TIM I know, one had appalling dysphoria and everyone feels very sympathetic about it. The other is a classic AGP and people are sorry for his ex-wife and DC. I don't think either is at all happy.

I wonder if people can ever really appreciate before they commit to transition how very limited many TIM/TIF find themselves in terms of partners. If, as TRA seek, there's an end to gatekeeping, and more and more transition without extensive counseling, there will be increasing numbers of people who find themselves unable to find a partner and unprepared for this eventuality.

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.

I spent too much time thinking about Paris last night.

It's not just about a girl getting the toys, women got everything Paris wanted. Paris does not understand that women get lots of disadvantages in life. Paris is just focused on their own loss and how to make Paris feel better about it. Paris is punishing women for what Dad did to Paris.

I heard about this when the podcast came out, didn't listen to it, and to my shame was critical of NR for doing an interview with a transwoman without an opposing gender critical viewpoint.
Having listened to the broadcast yesterday, I thought he did a good job.

I thought PL's account of h** childhood was heartbreaking. If 'transness' really was a thing, rather than a way of coping with imposed sex stereotypes and homophobia, wouldn't there be some transgirls who had been encouraged to play with barbies and wear tutu's by their accepting parents and still wanted to change sex?

It reaffirmed my belief that the correct treatment for trans identifying children is to support them in being themselves as the sex they actually are, and working to ensure society accepts them as their actual sex not encourage the false belief they can change sex.

I don't think PL is actually capable of debating the issues, nor is Monroe Bergdorf, because they are too fragile. They are fragile because their personal narrative and identity is built on something they must at some level know is a lie.

Terfinginthevoid, the TIM who come across as most at peace with themselves are those who - like Miranda Yardley - know full well they're men and acknowledge it, but find presenting as women helps their dysphoria.

The non-dysphoric TIM with paraphilias are the most aggressive, and I'm sure this is because they know they're lying about everything - largely to conceal their true motives.

Agree with terf. In short had, allowing your son to be the boy that plays with babies is a whole lot better than pretending your. son is female to allow him to play with barbies.

I thought PL's account of [PL's] childhood was heartbreaking.

Well, that's what you are supposed to feel. Start the interview with everyone feeling sorry for you and therefore not wanting to add to the misery. Clever.

I don't know the detail of PL's life. Do other family members remember this incident the same way or are we reliant on PL's version?

When PL said that the toys were taken away 'and presumably given to a girl' it kind of jarred in my head, but I didn't make this connection myself. Very interesting insight. The interview actually gave a pretty good perspective on why Paris, who calls themself a woman, seems to dislike women so much. That's quite some personal conflict to resolve.

Yes, it's pretty massive isn't it.

I also didn't make that connection at the time. The understandably resentful, possibly angry, feelings Paris must have had when they thought about the girl being given their precious things. As to blaming her dad for this act, it's actually asking a lot of a child to direct their anger at the appropriate person ie often a parent, as it uncovers a terrifying level of vulnerability for a child - that of not being parented. It may be that said imaginary girl or girls in general could have been an easier recipient of Paris' disdain, and that we are all actually still paying for these unresolved conflicts. It makes me view Paris very differently, as I couldn't understand before how you could so hate women whilst simultaneously wanting to be one.

I don't know why but this reminds me of Quentin Crisp who said he so yearned for a "real" man to love him, but simultaneously he also believed that a real man wouldn't love an effeminate homosexual: an impossible and contradictory fantasy. I'll never forget the last line in his autobiography "The Naked Civil Servant": “I stumble towards my grave confused and hurt and hungry."

I think if I ever happened to speak to Paris I would approach debate from a completely different angle having listened to that interview.

Paris is no longer a child. Paris makes a choice every day to continue a crusade against women because Dad removed toys, instead of getting therapy for trauma.

Senua

Well, that's what you are supposed to feel.

Yes, superficially you are right Senua, but I, unlike my Catholic upbringing, don't believe in original sin, and believe that whatever horrible characteristics one has in adulthood can be explained, often by mistreatment by others. This is not to condone bad behaviour, but I value such academic disciplines as psychology because we are never going to have a world full of happy respectful people if we can't work out what's going so wrong with so many of us!

I don't know why but this reminds me of Quentin Crisp who said he so yearned for a "real" man to love him, but simultaneously he also believed that a real man wouldn't love an effeminate homosexual: an impossible and contradictory fantasy

Probably very true for many TIM.

And here's our female socialisation again, wanting to explain, excuse and help a person who is systematically campaigning to dismantle your rights.

Paris is no longer a child.

I agree, but seeing yourself objectively is hard for everyone. Especially if feelings from childhood are repressed and you havent even got the insight to appreciate that fact. I very much doubt that Paris would agree with any of my analysis. She is is looking under the lampost for her keys, even though they aren't there.

Dad is responsible for what Dad did to Paris the child. Paris is responsible for what Paris the adult does.

And here's our female socialisation again,

Not excuse, understand.

And compassion is a quality I value in both male and female: why would we ever want to lose it? Being a doormat: no; allowing children to be targeted for sterilisation and surgery: no, but compassion is never a negative emotion, it is, however, extremely important what you do with it.

I too have compassion. Unlike you I would run for the hills if near Paris. There is no empathy from Paris for anyone other than Paris.

Paris also skips over the bit when they went to prison for two years for beating a man so badly during a robbery that he nearly died. So while I have immense sympathy for a horrible childhood, that's a very male pattern way of lashing out at a cruel world. www.theguardian.com/society/2013/dec/15/transgender-coming-of-age-paris-lees

That's an old article. Paris now claims they were in prison for 8 months.

Long time lurker here. Think this is my first post on feminist boards. Yikes, feels like a big step.

@Pratchett. I take your point but I don't think the solution is to shed our empathy and understanding.

The more I look at this topic the more I see that it's ALL about toxic masculinity causing a problem where there shouldn't be one.

Focussing on individuals and getting angry is a mistake. It's a whole culture that needs attention.

I've noticed I'm a part of the problem too in my own small way. When I bought clothes for my sons recently they were all blue and green. Why can't I put them in pastel shades?

Paris Lees is just a person. She didn't conform and her experiences drove her to the wrong conclusion about what she is. But if I, a gender-critical feminist don't put my sons in pastel clothing look how massive the issue is. (Obviously I would put them in pastel clothing if they wanted it! It's never come up)

Oh crap. I wanted my first post to be a good one and I'm not satisfied with this. Never mind. Onward and upward.