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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Paris Lees interviewed by Nick Robinson on Radio 4 now on.

132 replies

R0wantrees · 06/06/2018 13:47

Just listening...

OP posts:
annandale · 06/06/2018 20:04

Paris Lees was very slippery and manipulative, and I don't think NR pinned PL down very much, though an awful lot better than most. I did gasp when PL said 'people like you have always had the voice' - I mean I know what PL meant of course, but given that NR spent MONTHS of hard labour rehabilitating his voice after surgery for lung cancer gave him a vocal cord palsy, it was a particularly self-centred comment. No doubt PL would say a lot about how much work they had to do on their own voice feminisation, but it's a very different thing, working on a normal voice to use it differently, and working with a disordered voice. Especially when you are trying to present yourself as totally OK on a national broadcasting station at the time as NR has been ever since. The depth of a disability like that is really poorly understood, in fact NR said in his autobiography that his voice damage was the only thing in his cancer experience that made him cry. He still doesn't have a 'normal' voice. He just never, ever chooses to raise it outside very specific settings - no doubt it's partly about toxic masculinity and not showing weakness, but it is also his professional choice and a perfectly legitimate one.

But PL bashing away at 'the law will make no difference' 'it's already the law' (no it isn't, I think PL was deliberately conflating EA protection against discrimination and the GRA) just once 'it's only about paperwork' - and the way they would deflect any specific question to broader 'just want to be understood' 'don't focus on genitals' 'don't treat me as a data point' issues, and narrow any broader question to 'what about violent women' was infuriating. Though PL did make some good points about NR's use of 'some say' questions which are a bit crap really.

annandale · 06/06/2018 20:05

Oh and I gasped again when PL said in the future 'this will be a paediatric issue'. NR could have pursued that IMO.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/06/2018 20:08

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Pratchet · 06/06/2018 20:19

Careful on the PL here. PL has managed to get h* entire non-sparkle biographical details off tinterweb and mentioning h* sex is brave and stunning verboten.

Pratchet · 06/06/2018 20:20

Sht I'm going to get deleted too

Pratchet · 06/06/2018 20:21

But as there's no GRC I don't know why

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 06/06/2018 20:30

Thanks for the tip.

'PL in response witters on about the questions not being legitimate but young people get it and the old ones will be dead soon.'

What a nasty piece of work Paris is.

Pratchet · 06/06/2018 20:34

I agree ☝️

TyneTeas · 06/06/2018 20:41

Regards the up thread discussions about propaganda techniques, this website might be interesting

yourlogicalfallacyis.com

Pratchet · 06/06/2018 21:34

Nick Robinson is a nice man and was trying not to be overtly rude. No one wants to trigger narcissistic rage. He navigated it better than anyone has so far. I hope he does more.

noeffingidea · 07/06/2018 07:46

young people get it and the old ones will be dead soon
Wrong on both counts. Plenty of young people see right through this, and there's plenty of life left in the 'old ones'.

R0wantrees · 07/06/2018 11:04

I listened to the full interview last night. It is really worth doing so, and also considering carefully,:
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05xp3z2

I also listened to the interview Nick Robinson did with Peter Tatchell (which he recommends):
"The human rights activist talks about the long fight for LGBT equality, the importance of debate and free speech, and why love drives his campaigning."
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p05qj9fv

There are many important points made in both interviews.

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ALittleBitofVitriol · 07/06/2018 11:46

*noeffingidea

young people get it and the old ones will be dead soon
Wrong on both counts. Plenty of young people see right through this, and there's plenty of life left in the 'old ones'.*

Yep. This ain't Logan's Run, Paris et al.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 07/06/2018 12:21

Has this not been out for ages?

Terfulike · 07/06/2018 12:23

Paris Lees why can't they just be who they want without involving the rest of us. We don't want penises in women's rooms.

R0wantrees · 07/06/2018 12:26

A shortened version of the interview with Paris Lees was played on R4 yesterday.
It seemed helpful timing given the Government response to the petition.
Many people are not aware of the consultation on proposed changes to the GRA or possible implications.

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

OP posts:
Terfulike · 07/06/2018 12:58

Anyway. Paris Lees is a

Gretol · 07/06/2018 13:00

I thought it was very telling that they played it at all tbh.

I think there is a definite shift in the air.

I thought the Voice comment was particularly nasty but I am willing to believe PL had no idea of the context

terryleather · 07/06/2018 13:02

..fudd.

Lottapianos · 07/06/2018 13:07

'Oh and I gasped again when PL said in the future 'this will be a paediatric issue''

Same here. Jesus Hmm

Nick was totally spot on that Paris seems to be enormously offended by merely being questioned about what Paris was saying. Nick's response to the 'do you think I'm a woman?' question was as polite as it could possibly have been while still being crystal clear that no, he jeffing well does not

BarbarianMum · 07/06/2018 13:09

It's not the first time this has happened - for years, every time there was an item about climate change the Beeb felt it had to also put on a climate change denier to "balance" the arguement.

Eventually the weight of evidence was such that this requirement was dropped and the thinking about climate change (ie that it exists) became recognised as mainstream. I hope the reality of biological sex will one day be recognised (or rather, re-recognised) by the media in the same way. And I do notice a change in the tide.

AbsintheFriends · 07/06/2018 13:17

Eventually this will be a paediatric issue

Not on our watch, Paris.

Does anyone know how James Caspian's crowdfunder for the right to research detransitioning is going?

MillyTheKid · 07/06/2018 13:30

Interesting thread. Makes me think about the hear what we want to hear comment someone else made on the thread about the BBC Big Question with Heather and Shon. Looking at Twitter it seems there's a lot of comments from people who think that Lees handled it well and Robinson was out of line... mostly from general listeners as well, not those who appear to be on one side of the debate. I suppose it's the same on both sides. TRAs would probably attack someone no matter how well or badly they handled an interview.

Terfulike · 07/06/2018 14:24

man

Terfulike · 07/06/2018 14:28

I did feel really sad for Paris when speaking about all their toys being literally taken away. That was genuinely heartbreaking and no child deserves to be abused like that. I just don't see what it's got to do with that same boy growing up needing to get their penis into female only spaces.