Primary school scraps boys and girls-only races from its sports day because they exclude transgender children

[caperberries]

Is there a thread about this yet?

Link from the Daily Mail:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5794361/Primary-school-Inverness-scraps-boys-girls-races.html

She's 11 and it's a pe lesson.

No need for shouting at anyone ffs.

And funnily enough the girls cricket team manage to compete and win without yelling at eachother or blaming everyone else for them missing the ball

My daughter is Year 5 and is the tallest, most athletic child in her class. So it’s not the physical differences in the sexes that held her back in mixed team sports up until now. It’s everything else! We can say we wished it wasn’t so, but the reality of a patriarchal society is that girls won’t succeed at sport unless they are separated.

My DD also dives competitively where they are separated from the earliest stage (7/8) to compete. It works.

And as an aside...the boys stopped including her in lunchtime kicksabouts last year. They didn’t want to play with girls. She rallied a small group of girls to play football instead, but nobody is out there in the playground jungle sorting this issue out. If she hadn’t done it herself she’d be like most football playing girls, who drop out before secondary school.

Yy oh at one point when they were doing football in pe her and a few other girls were complety ignored to the point aftwr a dew sessions she asked of they could go do some cricket instead so they played cricket while the boys played football amongst themselves

My DD played football in primary in mixed teams it was horrendous, boys not wanting to play with girls, snide remarks from parents when the team were not winning in schools competitions. The most the ratio for girls was 3 in a squad of 15. She played in an all female team at secondary and her confidence soared whereas most of her female peers ceased all sport (except pe) at secondary. It’s hard enough to keep females into sport as it is. I saw the difference at pre puberty age, probably around 9 and especially in strength with my own children. DS1 could easily overpower DD with only a year difference in age, probably making it worse was he didn’t understand his new strength.

Don't you think though that separating out the boys and girls simply reenforces this notion that the boys have that the two sexes are fundamentally different, and an age where they are demonstrably not that different at all?

I think the answer is girl-centred sports coaching at primary ages. Separating means two lots of coaches etc.; It would be better if the "girls" coaching was the default coaching. It would be better for girls' achievement, it would be better in that they would be taught that they can and do compete with boys when things are otherwise equal, and it would be better for boys that they see that too.

I think that's where I stand on it so far.

That sounds lovely in theory. But until playing with girls is not seen as some kind of joke and losing against girls the height of embarrassment im.not sure it would work.

How do you undo years of socialization in 2 pe lessons a week...

How do you undo years of socialization in 2 pe lessons a week...

Surely you start when they're 4 and that helps...

I don't think it's okay to acknowledge the damage done by socialisation but not to try and socialise that out in the very places we usually socialise our children; school and extra curricular activities.

My kids aren't school age yet but I'm a sportswoman so have an above average interest in sports. If government guidance needs to go out to groups promoting sport to children and teachers teaching it in school then I am all up for the campaign.

FWIW I will be coaching my sport to 3+ year olds in the not too distant future. Mixed sex. I will be actively compensating for society's gender biases concerning sport when I do, with this thread in mind!

I'm not denying or disagreeing with your experiences oh and giles. But in dds case I'm really glad it was mixed.

It was a small primary and we live semi rurally, so separating at primary age would have just very much limited her chance to play, both in school or just when playing out.

And imo it was a positive for all of them, dd and another girl because they didn't feel they shouldn't intrude male dominated activities, the boys because they learnt that regardless of what society said the girls were as good or even better at 'boy' stuff. The boys she played with never had anything negative to say, and on more than one occasion jeered anyone who did try it.

She's sporty but at secondary level the type who makes the team, rather than being particularly talented. And in fairness that's more due to fitness, and at primary age her ability to plan and play tactically. So not a positive experience because she's amazing.

And I have no doubt that if she hadn't grown up playing alongside them, at 14 she and one or two other girls certainly wouldn't still be able to join in local mess abouts with local, mainly teen lads. All very well if you live somewhere more populated/ better public transport, but not at all practical for us to have to drive and plan in advance every time dd fancies kicking a ball around.

Not that this will last, but she's very tall and fast, if slight. So until the boys start bulking out and gaining an advantage she is still treated as an equal.

It would be fab if schools could do that. But everything from the reading books onwards is working against that.

I'm obviously doing my best to teach my dds that they can do or be anythung that they want to do. That the only thing she cant do that boys can is pee standing up.

But so far we have had- being shouted at cos them missing the ball is her fault even when the coach said it was fine.

Boys refusing to pass or include girls

Space invasion

Boys refusing to join in witg dance or gymnastic routines. Dd hates dance too but she got on with it as it was what they were doing in pe.

Being shoved about in swim.lessom by a boy who didn't like her overtaking him

Being shouted at/drink thrown over her at the park.

And she's probably one of the luckier ones if you ask on MN.

Just not sure how this fairy tale idea will ever be possible. No matter how much it would be lovely if it could

I've just been at my DC's primary school sports day and the P6 (aged 10) and P7 (aged 11) races were single sex apart from the relays. And in the relays every single boy beat the girls they were racing against - even the immensely talented and hardworking P6 girl who's now running in a club at regional level. (Please note though that the only participants in the relays were kids good at running).

Puberty has already started for the majority of these children, in P6 almost all the girls are currently taller than the boys which is annoying the boys quite a bit...

Our school mixes infant and lower primary school years but separates from P5 (age 9).

It starts well before 4

When it comes to football at any rate

Having said that hopefully with women's football getting more coverage it will change

But i think they should be separated ...but its at what age

And everything giles said

Unfortunately in this country football is god

Half of the stuff that Giles talks ablout for girls happens to summer boys as well (can you see i have a bee in my bonnet )

I also didn’t find out the full story of DD and her experience of playing in mixed football team until she was 13. I asked why she didn’t quit and it was because she new that’s what the boys wanted. But in hindsight she wished she had. I know my parents had no idea how much I hated PE with boys and the stupid skirts we had to wear and white tee shirts that showed your bra when it rained, I hit puberty at 10.

Oh god yes. I mean everything right down to pe kit and school uniform is a reminder that girls are an after thought.

Who thinks white shirts that show your bra or underwear through them and skorts/netball skirts that show you still need to be "girly " when playing sports...are a good idea..

Don't you think though that separating out the boys and girls simply reenforces this notion that the boys have that the two sexes are fundamentally different, and an age where they are demonstrably not that different at all?

I think there's something in that Rat, I come from a large family, mostly boys. I knew that I was equal to my brothers physically before I started school because of fighting, backyard football, climbing trees etc.

If I hadn't had that experience maybe I would have been influenced more by society telling me girls and sports don't mix.

I'm sorry but if boys refuse to listen to girls from primary school, that's a stronger reason for younger sports to be mixed! How is the solution to that to split the sexes EARLIER?

They need the schools to intervene, possibly a national campaign or something.

My kids are at a v small primary, it's mixed there and that seems fine. The kids are such different sizes anyway rather than sex you would be better off separating pre / post puberty with both the boys and girls, some the same age are twice the size of the others! Two boys the other day, same class, one towers above me and voice is breaking, his mate only came up to mid chest on him and looked about 5 years younger!

On this:

"
The last few months have been awful for dd. She loves sport but the boys refuse to listen to her (when she was team captain)

They tell her she's doing everything and shout at her when they moss the ball or don't score or whatever .

Excellent life skills training. "

I worry about anyone who things it's important for girls to learn early that males will belittle, ignore, blame and speak over them, shout at them, and there's not really much they can do about it. Yes it prepares for what may come in personal relationships and work, but it's a pretty fucking depressing lesson to say they have to learn, let alone describe as "excellent"

But i think they should be separated ...but its at what age

YY, that is the question.

Personally I think that pre 8/9 there's no justification for separate. Biologically speaking.

I think the issues you speak of are important Giles, but the solution should not be shortsighted. Segregation would at first seem to solve the problem, but if you look closer it would contribute to making it worse through reinforcement. And that reinforced socialisation will present itself further down the line in the form of men viewing women in their sphere as less competent, and women feeling they can't succeed in areas dominated by men.

Don't underestimate what can be achieved with a targeted campaign in schools and sports clubs. Seriously, it's environments like these that can shape the attitudes of a future generation.

To me, I can already see the difference between men and women involved in different sports and attribute it back to the "culture" of that sport. In my sport we can all spot footballers who take it up. We can spot athletes. We have a very feminist/egalitarian culture as a sport - no doubt other sports people can spot us too. If there was a targeted campaign I think it could do A LOT for the socialisqtion problems that disadvantage women and girls in all avenues of modern life.

I’d love a proper national government campaign to improve sports education and competition for girls.

Until that happens, though, I see separating the sexes as positive discrimination for girls.

I also don’t understand why segregation of the sexes for sport at school level is viewed negatively when women and men compete separately in all sports as adults.

But we have tried it that way.

It's mixed inn most primary schools. They try all sorts of things football dance gymnastics rounders cricket badminton etc

And it's not working. And girls are getting turned off from sport at an alarming rate.

I just don't see why mine or anyone else's kid should continue to be part of a scheme "for the greater good" when it's hurting them.

Isn't the very definition of insanity doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome?

Maybe we should just try it. Separate them and see how it goes

To back up what rat says, dd does another sport competitively where there's no separation at any age. Naturally it requires strength, skill, fitness etc but there's no advantage to the greater muscle/ size of being biologically male, so women and men compete against each other. As a result it's a very equal environment, no stereotype as to which sex is better, either in general or from the PoV that boys are better at the more dangerous/ adrenaline fuelled aspects. So it very much reinforces the fact only sheer size/ strength post puberty make a difference in many other sports, not stereotypes.

Just to add a few pints on on the ‘biology’ front:

DD started her period at 9. Age 10, there are 3 other girls I know of in her class who have also started. Puberty isn’t a secondary school issue these days, it often starts much earlier.

However...socialisation of boys and girls starts much earlier. DD was the only girl in pre-school football class, as everyone else was doing ballet and gymnastics. That’s not an encouraging environment for a girl...and it says to the boys ‘this is our territory’ from a very young age.

We can’t pretend these messages don’t exist or aren’t very deeply ingrained. Mixed sport isn’t in any way shape or form a level playing field for girls.

For infants I would say that the age is much more differentiating than the sex - DS1 was the youngest in his year, and a good 4 or 5 inches shorter than his best mate who was one of the oldest when he was in reception. He didn't stand a chance (which was fine, because they sensibly had a sports day with silly races like beanbags and water balloons, and through hoops and tunnels)

Now he's 8, they are starting to even out a bit, and the girls are starting to look more slight - although the girls that have had a growth spurt tower over him again. So I think that if you're talking about standard long-jump, running etc. races, sometime soon it would be sensible to start segregating.

I think the big issue is that girls in PE are often sidelined - the boys teams get all the effort and glory, and the girls are just left to do what they can with what's left (much as in adult sport)