Examples of transgender males in male roles

[Kettlepotblack]

Are there any examples of females that have transitioned into males holding male posts, accessing male spaces or entering male sports contexts etc as men?

I'm struggling to find examples.

Is this happening on the same scale the other way around?

The point is that trans men are not asking for anything that is a scarce resource to men. Men are also not likely to be intimidated, scared or wary of female-bodied people, or likely to have reasons why female-bodied people are going to stop them accessing services etc etc. The very small number of passing transmen will not affect them at all, and I would imagine that non-passing transmen are themselves wary about entering male spaces.

That's what I mean assassinated - the threat is simply not the same and the fight for the space has never existed. The space is not sacred for he same reasons.

Indeed. There is no point comparing the trans man impact with that of trans women because biology (strength) and socialisation (Male privilege) mean that trans men do not have the same potential impact on men in terms of physical spaces and access to boardroom (shorthand for things like AWS) as do trans women on women.

In light of the pitiful excuses seen today, perhaps more of us should identify as men to help diversity while keeping women in their places.

I agree that the comparison doesn't really work both ways. Sports may be one of the few areas where there are obvious issues both because in some areas there are only male teams for some sports sometimes just due to numbers so there would be a debate on whether female players, of any identity, should play on a primarily male team due to physical risks and that some boys will not be willing to play with or compete against a girl (particularly in contact sports, I imagine that's more an issue with wrestling than swimming) as well as because while difficult for a trans man, with early transition a lot of those differences will be at least narrower and the issue of performance enhancing drugs and making the rules fair and equal - if a trans man is on T, which no man would be allowed to take, should they be allowed to compete and what affect would that have?

As the Mack Begg situation has shown (though I don't think he says much for trans rights, just his own wants and calling people haters for pointing out the obvious fact that if you take and brag about taking drugs, your victories will be attributed to the drug rather than ability), while a few places have made allowances for trans atheletes, that the issue of performance enhancement drugs in sports is flaring up around this. If, as Mack says he wants, he were treated as any other boy...he would likely be banned for doping as boys with low testoserone much like other kids with medical conditions that need classed drugs are usually not allowed to compete and, while it isn't nice and I think there needs to be far more for-fun spaces for sports with more relaxed rules, I agree with that for competitive sports. I did what Mack wants, I competed with boys in wrestling, and I just cannot wrap my mind around the idea that whoever Mack wrestles, it's okay to do it while on T. I think if it is allowed to continue that it will impact both boys and girls in pursuing sports.

Ben Bares died fairly recently - this is from his obit in The BMJ -

The most prominent example of public advocacy came when Barres took on Harvard University president Larry Summers over comments that the paucity of women in the sciences was perhaps rooted in their “intrinsic aptitude.” Barres countered that assertion in an extended 2006 commentary in Nature, which was laced with statistics and personal experience from presenting as both female and male.

“Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard to say, ‘Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s,’” he wrote, illustrating the perception barrier that female researchers face. He added that one benefit of transitioning is that “I can even complete a whole sentence without being interrupted by a man.”

And he included women in denying the existence of gender based bias, chastising those who succeed who too often “pull up the ladder behind them.”

“People are still arguing over whether there are cognitive differences between men and women. If they exist, it’s not clear they are innate, and if they are innate, it’s not clear they are relevant,” he told the New York Times.

If, as Mack says he wants, he were treated as any other boy...he would likely be banned for doping as boys with low testosterone much like other kids with medical conditions that need classed drugs are usually not allowed to compete

Just as an aside, you actually usually are allowed to take "banned" substances when you have a medical diagnosis or doctor's note prescribing them.

The really ubiquitous example is asthma inhalers. These are a banned substance but if you are a diagnosed asthmatic, they are not.

With a medical diagnosis and a genuine medical need you usually can take banned substances in sport; no problem.

The really ubiquitous example is asthma inhalers. These are a banned substance but if you are a diagnosed asthmatic, they are not.

I should make it clear, they are actually a performance inhancer - not just banned.

Not automatically Rat, at least not in the States on most official competitive sport circuits. One can apply for a medical exception certification, but just having the prescription isn't enough, other checks are done - at high school, it's usually a district decision and many of them still don't allow testosterone for any reason. This has been raised repeatedly in the wider discussion of Mack Beggs going around the internet and within wrestling circles in how few areas in the US at that level either allow testosterone at all, allow testosterone for males as some only have an exception for trans boys (which as I said goes against the idea of treating them the same as other boys), or even have girls' wrestling teams, but then Texas does love to stand out and it's messed up rulings of both allowing T for trans boys and same sex only teams (though I think the same sex decision has more to do with not putting boys who for religious or other reasons won't wrestle girls, of any identity, in the position of having to forfeit than anything to do with anyone's safety).

The NCAA, which Mack will likely be under if competing at Uni, has only allowed it recently on semi-strict conditions and it's still really controversial because it's testosterone, one of the most well known banned substances because of the history of it's misuse in sports. Just saying you're going up against someone T is really off-putting and I can only imagine this having a negative impact on people of either sex wanting to take part in some sports. Personally, I'm very against the move, especially now with 'informed consent clinics' which is going to make the checks for the medical exception certificate (which is meant to deal with prescription fraud) really difficult. The NCAA says it will be doing on-going reviews as it does with everything so we'll have to see how that goes but I don't see it going well as is. It's very much an area where trans men in male roles can have a negative impact.

One can apply for a medical exception certification, but just having the prescription isn't enough, other checks are done

I was thinking of Armstrong in the Tour de France when I said about prescriptions; just remembering the UCI rules that prescriptions should be shown in advance of use so that the medication can be approved. I didn't mean to imply you could take whatever you wanted so long as you had that yellow slip, but I see it could read that way :)

Rebecca Root does not present herself in a hyperfeminised way. She is a transwoman (actress in Boy meets girl and the danish girl).

Many transmen do seem to work out a lot though - assuming biceps and a six pack help them 'pass' better/fix their gender dysphoria - but this hypermasculinity is not mentioned as training/muscles is seen as healthy I guess rather than performing gender?

"Chris Mosier is an American transgender triathlete. He started his athletic career as a female, started his transition in 2010, and in 2015 earned a spot on the Team USA sprint duathlon men’s team for the 2016 World Championship, making him the first known out trans athlete to join a U.S. national team different from his gender assigned at birth. While he qualified, Mosier was uncertain about his eligibility to compete in the Duathlon Age Group World Championship Race in Spain in June 201. In 2015, Mosier challenged the International Olympic Committee’s policy on transgender athletes, resulting in the creation and adoption of new IOC guidelines."

To be clear:

Chris takes steroids, legally
You will notice the words 'compete' quite a lot above, Chris 'competes' at about the same level Paula Radcliffe would 'compete' against men.

I.e. by being uncompetitive.

FTM athletes throw away any chance to win. MTF enhance their chances to win.

rocketpocket
I was also wondering about this and similar questions. Are there ftm trans in male prisons?
What about late transitioning? 40s or later after they've had children etc|

According to a data collection exercise conducted by the MoJ (the people who actually run the prison service, and who might reasonably be expected have accurate figures!) in March/April 2016:
• There were 70 prisoners currently living in, or presenting in, a gender different to their sex assigned at birth and who have had a case conference (as defined by PSI 07/2011). Of these, 52 reported their gender as male, 14 reported their gender as female and 4 did not state their gender.
• Based on this exercise, there were 0.8 transgender prisoners reported per 1,000 prisoners in custody.

So 20% were transwomen (or TIMs, if you prefer antitrans terminology)
6% were "not stated" (possibly gender or bigender)
74% were transmen (or TIFs if you prefer antitrans terminology)
There are no good statistics for the total number of transgender people in the UK, but the 0.08% of prison population is broadly in line or slightly below with many estimates of the total population (typically around the 0.1% mark)

What about late transitioning? 40s or later after they've had children etc|
I don't know where you will find this figure in print, but I was told by one of the psychs at my GIC that the average age for M-to-F GRS was 42. There are quite a significant proportion who struggled to suppress their transness well beyond the age at which society expected them to get married, and who believed that it would all go away once they did so. When they found that it didn't many continued to suppress as long as they could, for the sake of their families. I personally know one transwoman who nursed her wife through dementia, and did not begin her transition until after her wife had died, and she was in her 80s.. I know another who delayed transition until se was in her 70s. On their 50th wedding anniversary, she and her wife renewed their wedding vows as "wife and wife".

Kettlepotblack
I wonder too, how many examples of transgender women there are who DONT wear thick make up, long hair and high heels.
Most of us! I do wonder, sometimes, where this caricature comes from. I, for one, can't be bothered with all that stuff first thing in the morning, and high heels are not allowed at work (H&S).
Is it that you don't know (or don't recognise) the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?
Is it that you only see trans people (that you know are trans) on TV — in which case, how many cis-gendered women do you see appearing without make-up and scruffily dressed in similar circumstances?
Or is it that you have walked past countless trans people (you probably have, because we probably account for about one in every thousand people you see) without noticing them?
Or is it that you haven't noticed the proportion of cis-gendered women who also "wear thick make up, long hair and high heels".

Why does how you dress and look need validation?
I don't know: why do the anti-trans people keep banging on about it? Why are we expected to validate how we dress and look?

CaitlynsCat
FTM athletes throw away any chance to win. MTF enhance their chances to win.
Evidence ??
(Such as a list of olympic medal winners who won their medals after transition?)

Is it that you don't know (or don't recognise) the difference between cross-dressers and transsexuals?

Perhaps you don't know that Stonewall refuses to make a distinction between cross-dressers and transsexuals?

Why are we expected to validate how we dress and look?

Why are we (women) expected to validate your feelings rather than your biology?

Kettlepotblack
I'm asking to any examples, really, where the f2m is pushing the same agenda as the m2f, on the same way...
Transmen are not being subjected to the same campaign of vilification and hatred as transwomen, so they are not being forced to defend themselves to anything like the same extent.
Most of us just want to be allowed get on with our lives.
We really, really don't want to have to fight to defend our right to go for a pee or to buy clothes that fit.

Nobody is suggesting that trans women should be banned from using public toilets or buying clothes.

"Evidence ??
(Such as a list of olympic medal winners who won their medals after transition?)"

How about the recent example of Laurel Hubbard who managed to win their national weightlifting competition easily and go to the Commonwealth games at the age of 40 plus, getting on towards twice the age of the typical competitor? Before transition Laurel had not qualified for the Commonwealth Games.

TerfsUp
Perhaps you don't know that Stonewall refuses to make a distinction between cross-dressers and transsexuals?
Funny: "Transsexual" is still in the Stonewall glossary. And every version of the "trans umbrella" that I have seen includes the two terms as quite separate categories.

Why are we (women) expected to validate your feelings rather than your biology?
You're not. You don't. But it might be a good idea to look at the evidence. Try looking somewhere other than between our legs, and think about what goes on between our ears (and yours). Or aren't brains biology, too?

(Such as a list of olympic medal winners who won their medals after transition?)

Not sure if serious.

Firstly there are NO cases of FTM athletes dominating male sport. None.

Secondly, Laurel Hubbard won Women's World Weightlifting Championship silver medal despite NO senior male success, Tiffany Abreu was a third-rate volleyball player then set the alltime pointscoring record in elite women's volleyball. Lauren Jeska won a bunch of fell runs before trying to kill the man who investigated. Jessica Platt played in elite women's ice hockey, despite not even playing the sport since school.

Thirdly there are a whole bunch of XY individuals who have Olympic medals but that's a slightly different topic so perhaps best left for elsewhere.

AssassinatedBeauty
Nobody is suggesting that trans women should be banned from using public toilets or buying clothes.
It's a recurrent (incredibly boring) theme on Mumsnet.
You want to screw up the Equality Act, and have us banned from toilets and changing rooms. Countless posts about it. (including, I think, some of yours!)

You're not. You don't.

We are and we do. I am female; don't you dare try to tell me what my experience of being female is.

Chromosomes are biology. Brains are biology. Feelings are not biology.

Stonewall considers cross-dressers and transsexuals to be under the same umbrella. Glad we agree on this pointy.

What about your brain?

I'm quite sure I haven't posted about wanting to ban transwomen from toilets or from changing rooms.

Nobody is suggesting that trans women should be banned from using public toilets or buying clothes.

Show me posts where MNs have written that transpeople should urinate or defecate in the street rather than use a public toilet or go unclothed rather than buy clothing. Shouldn't be difficult, as you claim that it is a "recurring theme".

If AssassinatedBeauty has written that, then she speaks for herself and this does not make it a "recurring theme" on MN.