Posie

[BabyItsAWildWorld]

Where the fuck has the Posie thread gone and why??

So posie has views which have got her no platformed by WPUK.

and now MN will not let us discuss her no platforming???

WTF is happening?? How scary is this shit?

The reason I can see given is that the WPUK decision was not to do with MN.

99% of threads are about people/organsitions/decisions not to do with MN. That explanation makes no sense.

Did Posie ask for it to go?

I thought she was getting mostly support on there.

Surely under self id you make a declaration of your intention to live the rest of your life as a man. Would becoming pregnant and giving birth, as something only a woman can do, be evidence of fraud?

Something like this might be the only way that you could prove a declaration was fraudulent. Similarly, a TIM who had used their penis for sex, is not 'living as a woman', since only a man can do such a thing.

Other than sex and reproduction, it is difficult, if not impossible, to distinguish 'living as a woman' from 'living as a man'.

I also find having a baby after elective double mastectomy offensive to the neonate. What if they are prem and need that colostrum.
I'm in no way criticising bottle feeding of healthy babies, but such a neonate needs a womb and might just need colostrum as a matter of life or death.

Is it also bad for women who have cripplingly large breasts to have a reduction which stops them being able to breastfeed? What about women who cannot breastfeed? Do their babies die just because they don't get colostrum? Do they fuck. Stop scaremongering and offending cancer-victims and BRCA positive women and those who have had breast surgery in the process.

"Depends the extent they are asked to play along though. If they are told that [mum] was born a woman and gave birth to you, but now prefers to be called Robbie and has a beard, I can't see that being a big problem."
Except, I might add, that I know former lesbians with kids who transitioned, and it wasn't always straightforward for the children. As a former friend of such a person, I felt that I was in some sense loosing the lesbian I had known because they wanted that women (hence that lesbian) to no longer exist. How that feels when the person concerned was your mum before, and is now what? Possibly hard for the kids as well, and perhaps understandable why Jenners children call Caitlyn dad................
If partners of transitioning males should be allowed to mourn the loss of the man they married, then should not we expect children to feel some effects at loosing some aspect of the father or mother they used to have?

Transmen can do whatever the fuck they want with their own bodies.

But they don't have the right to change all the language re. female biology for all the other females in the world because they and a tiny % of females have body dysmorphia.

What the fuck goes on in a person's brain to actually think they have the right to impose this shit on the rest of us?

What the fuck goes on in a person's brain to actually think they have the right to impose this shit on the rest of us?

Controlling NPD.

Of course they should be given support and be permitted to grieve. The grief thing is quite interesting. I too feel that there would be some sense of loss if someone close transitioned. But then I wonder why I feel that way. The person would still be there albeit that they would look different. But their soul and their personality would surely be the same. I wonder if part of it is the significance we place on gender roles. I wouldn't feel grief or loss if someone had cosmetic surgery for instance, so why should I feel it if someone tells me they are transitioning? Really complex and interesting point though. I think children in this position would need a lot of support. I also think there is a difference between a trans man who has carried a child and been trans all the child's life and someone who transitions when the child is 10. The latter is undoubtedly harder to adjust to.

I wouldn't feel grief or loss if someone had cosmetic surgery for instance, so why should I feel it if someone tells me they are transitioning

I'm sure if my mother had cosmetic surgery on her nose or her breasts she would be able to admit they aren't real, so I'd have no problem with that.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2859690/

I'm sure if my mother had cosmetic surgery on her nose or her breasts she would be able to admit they aren't real, so I'd have no problem with that.

But many trans people are open about their past and the fact that they were born a woman/man etc. Also, many people who have plastic surgery pretend it is all natural.

I was thinking more about how transitioning makes those around you think they have lost somebody. I do think it is a passing feeling though, but I agree that kids need a lot of support.

Yes, yes terf but the truth is many women cannot breastfeed and many choose not to and that does not mean they are selfish or uncaring. Colostrum is best of course, but this does not mean that a premature baby will die. If you run the argument that it is selfish, you do also bring within that definition women who have had mastectomies and reductions for other reasons. Probably not a helpful argument.

Can I remind you that I began by saying "i wouldn't say people can't be parents" Please do not put words in my mouth.

That was addressed to Rat who seems to think now that I believe the state should " decide[s] what constitutes a good enough reason to elect to have surgery? " which I didn't either.

To be frank I didn't think you could possibly be addressing me, what with me not having put any words in your mouth or having said what you later claim

I think children in this position would need a lot of support

Do the parents pay for this support? Peak Or is it left up to the state to pick up the pieces.

Personally I'd rather stretched funds go to reducing weight and getting on top of type 2 diabetes, to mental health in youth and young adults, and personally I'd like to see funds go to all. However, in these straightened times, a budget decision has to be made. No more for a person going through IVF for the third time.

PS I agree with your Terf that just like smoking and drinking in pregnancy you can't deny people their own opinions.

But many trans people are open about their past and the fact that they were born a woman/man

That wouldn't be enough for me. My mother will always be a woman, no matter what she says.

Where did I say they were selfish or uncaring?
I made clear that it is all a balance between mothers and babies needs.
However, in the specific case of becoming a tif, having a double mastectomy of healthy, size appropriate breast tissue, then getting deliberately pregnant.. Yes I do think that is offensive to the neonate. In that particular instance.
And you cant just ignore evidence based clinical research. Mothers need to make informed decisions, Peak, its a rare pregnancy where a choice of this kind does not have to be made, and its misguided to pretend that you can remove your breasts without there being consequencies for future children down the line.

Elendon I think support needs to be provided, either through NHS or privately. It’s about the child, not the parent here so we can encourage parents to pay for it but if they don’t, it should be provided still. Counselling and support will prevent bigger problems down the line.
Anyway, in these times of austerity, maybe some budget could come from the £45 mil paid for royal wedding security or the billion given to the DUP.

Giving counselling and support to kids should not come down to budget issues.

Giving counselling and support to kids should not come down to budget issues.

Unfortunately it does though Peak, especially since the DUP are hold this current government together.

Really up on LGBT awareness the DUP, and the reproductive rights of women - NOT!

So the massively bigger budget goes to bigots. I presume you know the difference between 45 million and a billion.

But Posie's position is that anyone who rejects being female (which you can't really reject because it is an unalterable state) should not be permitted to give birth to children.

This to me is the crux of the matter. Because it’s one of those things that you can object to, but not ban.

Like drinking heavily - it’s a really unwise thing to do. It has potentially catastrophic effects on the foetus that will last for life. BUT we cannot ban women from drinking because we have to accept that the mothers bodily autonomy is precendemt over the foetuses.
If they have equal rights we end up with basically the Irish 8th amendment.

So you can be of the opinion that it’s wrong to drink heavily (and I mean heavily, not the one glass of fizz once at a wedding that gets such handwringing on here.) but you can’t ban it. However much it’s a bad idea.

I’m of a similar opinion on TIM pregnancies. You’ve denied your biology, then you want to carry a child, and tell the child you’re not it’s mother despite carrying it and maybe carry on T? That to me is just not a good idea, for the health of the child or the family unit. But again you can’t ban it.

Sometimes a population wide rule means that individuals fuck uk. So no, I disagree hugely with forced sterilisation because if we have laws that permit it, they will be abused. And I disagree with women being prosecuted from drinking during pregnancy because we cannot police women like that, even though drinking heavily in pregnancy is a really shit thing to do.

I’m probably putting this in a really clumsy way, I’ve had a shit day and I’m tired - but the rights of he many outweigh the shit behaviour of the few. Or something.

And that also goes for language. The need of the vast majority of women for clear concise wording to deal with their biology outweighs the want of the few to call it fucking chestfeeding.

Rat

*The problem is if you start saying sometimes it's okay and sometimes it isn't you quickly find yourself in murky water.

What if the cancer risk wasn't 80% but 50%? What about 20%? Or 5% Who decides what constitutes a good enough reason to elect to have surgery? What if it's cosmetic? What if it's causing you profound distress? How much distress is enough that it's okay? It all gets very... well... difficult."*

What? Anyway, realistically we are talking about a very very small number of people. It’s not some huge threat to the NHS. Kids and teens have poor mental health anyway and mental health provision generally is crap. It should be a priority and everyone should be able to access it. This isn’t some utopian unrealistic dream- if the government wanted to pay for it they would. There is a magic money tree- it’s just not accessible by poor people.
Anyway, back to the subject matter we were discussing, kids should be supported if their parent transitions. Ideally parents should ensure this is done.

Bowl is saying very similar comments to me, perhaps pick her argument apart now.

There are a number of excellent charities who provide expert support specifically for children of trans parents. Informal support networks are also really effective for this, often in connection with LGBT youth groups.

Exactly Terf, that's exactly what I said. Nothing like what you accused me of. But it's okay, we agree on other things! I was just trying to show that it's easy to have a clear idea of right and wrong in your mind, but much harder to apply it in practice. That's all :)