Please change my mind : trans

[lurker33]

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

I also had a Christian upbringing where I was told it was okay to be gay, just not to have a gay relationship or formalise it by getting married

It wasn’t OK to be gay though was it? If your religion had thought it was fine to be gay they’d have been fine with gay marriage, gay everything. They weren’t, and ‘hate the sin love the sinner’ isn’t acceptance. It’s still control and hatred.

The question is also not about beliefs. It’s about classes. Beliefs are protected in a different way to sex, sexuality, race etc because beliefs are different.

I feel very very sorry for the children caught up in this. In the instance Daim gave it sounds as if she was genuinely suffering from disphoria. Personally I would have no objection to have her in my space, but then I am not vaunerable.

The trouble with enshrining this in law is that it becomes open to all. You can't say yes to that little girl and no to AGP unless there is a way to differentiate. For now that is the GRC, although it is no longer working as people are increasingly afraid to challenge it. There needs to be something people carry that shows their sex (or gender they have legally changed it). And it needs to be routinely checked for everyone, not just those you suspect is not the sex they are presenting as. I don't really want to suggest ID cards though.

The other reason I really feel sorry for the children is the way they are being lied to. I don't know if the attached tweet is genuine but I've seen enough similar things to suspect it is. These children are being lied to about reality and about what is possible. It's not surprising they are angry - they think we are lying when we say things aren't possible. When they say we are denying their existence some at least really do believe it - as far as they are concerned they really do have female brains and male bodies. Us saying that isn't possible sounds to them as if we are saying they lie when they are speaking the truth. I would imagine we can all remember something where we weren't believed as children and how we hurt.

We need a big basic biology education program in this country. One that is not connected with Mermaids.

Rebecca Reilly-Cooper tweet:

twitter.com/boodleoops/status/1001751836100055040

embedded link in tweet: gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/afab-transwomen/

We need a big basic biology education program in this country. One that is not connected with Mermaids.

(extracts)
"Schools are supporting increasing numbers of transgender students, using a variety of guidance from the teaching unions and charities such as Mermaids (which has a grant of £35,000 from the Department for Education to deliver training to 35 schools)."
“There needs to be clear statutory guidance for schools that incorporates the views of experts from education, the medical profession, the Equality and Human Rights Commission and trans people,” she says. “Rows about a vulnerable and marginalised group in education are not helpful.”

"The EHRC is planning to issue guidance of its own next month, something Birkenshaw welcomes. “Schools want to support the transgender young person, but at the same time they’ll be reflecting on how other children may feel, on how staff are going to feel and parents.”

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

Being gay, I empathise because I could feasibly have lived my life without having a relationship with a woman but it wouldn't have been a happy or fulfilling life. There are still many Christians that would fight against my right to marry as they feel it undermines their religion.

From what I understand, trans people can feasibly live their life as the sex they were assigned at birth but it would not be a happy or fulfilling life. And GC people will fight to stop them legally changing sex.

Both being gay and being trans means having a strong sense of self identity that is hard to articulate but is very real for the person living it. I don't understand being trans at all but I appreciate humans have different experiences and I would like to live in a world where this is acknowledged and respected.

The existing Equality Act has relevant exemptions to protect women so i don't feel trans women pose any significant threat to us.

"Assigned you can disagree with me but my experience and opinions are just as valid as yours."

This is problem right there ^. Experience and opinions are not facts Daim. The facts are more valid than your opinions. Boys are not girls. That's a fact. And objective, scientific, observable fact. Stop being so fucking stupid.

From what I understand, trans people can feasibly live their life as the sex they were assigned at birth but it would not be a happy or fulfilling life.

What does it mean to live your life as one sex or the other though?

Surely you can understand, Daim, that your belief that your friend had a female essence/soul is simply your belief. It's a belief system.

Your friend was objectively male, with a very feminine presentation and feminine behaviours. I can see how that could cause you to perceive them as a girl, but others might not. And certainly not in all situations.

Why are laws and behaviours being changed to accommodate some people's belief system, and those of us who don't share that belief system are being told we're committing hate crime?

Sex is not assigned, it’s observed.

This is speculation, daim so forgive me if this is an little personal. I wonder how much of your need to fight for TRA rights is linked to your upbringing? Your religion has gone you a grave wrong - it’s told you that being gay is sinful. Something core to your being has been rejected by those around you. That’s really damaging and awfulnfor a child. All the ‘its ok as long as you don’t...’ stuff is a red herring. They didn’t accept you, and you will have internalised a lot of it and you will be seeing other groups as similarly wronged.

But the two things, being gay and being trans are not the same. Being gay is an orientation. You can’t change it and you shouldn’t have to. Identifying as a woman when you’re a man and insisting that you’re a woman is not an orientation. It’s demonstrably a false belief.

Assasinated I can see your point because I have personally suffered because laws have been made on the basis of a belief system (that is why gay marriage took so long to become legalised).

My personal opinion is allowing a person to legally change sex, as they currently do under the GRA, has very little impact on women but allows transgender individuals to live happy and fulfilling lives. That is why I don't have anything against it.

James Kirkup, "To summarise: lesbians, who say they are sexually attracted to people with female genitals, report that they find themselves being told, sometimes aggressively, that they must include in their range of potential sexual partners people who have male genitals. And if they speak out to challenge such messages, they are told they are being “transphobic” or bigoted or similar."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

recent thread with examples:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3259650-Lesbian-gets-banned-from-LGBTQ-messaged-board-for-trying-to-talk-about-the-lesbophobia-in-trans-activism

Bowlofbabelfish maybe so, but what have we got to go on apart from our own experiences?

I think the problem is a lot of women equate trans women with men which I don't.

I have had bad experiences with men so I can empathise with a need for female only spaces but I class trans women as female and do not see them as threatening.

I know there have been a few TRAs online that suggest otherwise and this needs to be dealt with.

I don't have too much of an issue with the GRC process as it stands at the mo, although I wish it was clearer that the exemptions under the Equalities Act are legal and should be used in circumstances that warrant it. I think most organisations are far too intimidated by vocal activists and so don't use the exemptions when it could be justified.

Self ID, and the rise of organisations agreeing to implement ad hoc self ID in advance of any law changes is a big issue for me.

"but what have we got to go on apart from our own experiences"

Facts. Learn stuff outside your own fucking head.

This is why we are in this bloody mess. People think their experiences are more important than anything else. How the fuck is this not simply self centred crap?

Since what is being said and what is not being said has been explained to you a number of times and you persist with the ‘you want to deny trans people the right to exist’ stuff I think you are goady TBH but I’ll answer you again anyway;

Being gay, I empathise because I could feasibly have lived my life without having a relationship with a woman but it wouldn't have been a happy or fulfilling life. There are still many Christians that would fight against my right to marry as they feel it undermines their religion.

This is a totally different issue and that is why it is treated differently in law. Christian people are allowed to believe in Christianity. That right does not extend to imposing that belief system on other people. An atheist has the same status in law as a Christian re belief.

TRAs are lobbying for the law to mandate that everyone has to behave as though they have changed sex. This is materially different as a concept to trans people’s trans status being protected in law and it has the effect of erasing sex differentiation which is not only erasing female/male but also trans. How can something be transphobic for example if a trans person is the sex their gender identity determines? How can they have appropriate healthcare? How can female/male people? Etc etc etc

How would legislation that mandated everyone believe a homosexual person is heterosexual have helped lesbian and gay rights? Of course people usually know other people are gay/trans no matter what the law says they should believe so mandating everyone believe gay/trans people are hetero/the sex their gender identity dictates simply means any discrimination also doesn’t exist.

From what I understand, trans people can feasibly live their life as the sex they were assigned at birth but it would not be a happy or fulfilling life. And GC people will fight to stop them legally changing sex.

GC people have different views regarding who if any from the massive group called ‘transgender’ should be facilitated to change sex and further, where sex and gender identity should be differentiated in law. But the fact remains what needs protection re trans people is gender identity not sex. Sex based protections already exist and biologically it is not possible to change sex which means we should give careful consideration to legal sex change. GC feminists are asking that we do that, that’s all since changing the meaning of sex affects everybody not just trans people and because of sexism women are more vulnerable.

TRAs say the only people this effects are trans people and asking for this consideration is transphobic. This is frighteningly similar to the things the Christian Right say re homosexuality TBH.

Both being gay and being trans means having a strong sense of self identity that is hard to articulate but is very real for the person living it. I don't understand being trans at all but I appreciate humans have different experiences and I would like to live in a world where this is acknowledged and respected.

So do GC feminists, what’s your point here?

The existing Equality Act has relevant exemptions to protect women so i don't feel trans women pose any significant threat to us.

Do you understand that sex is a class based on shared biological characteristics and that since those biological characteristics don’t change re sex change (and what is proposed is actually that nothing needs to change for inclusion) means the meaning of sex changes? Nothing needs to be written into EA re sex as a protected characteristic of the meaning of female sex is changed to apply to people with male biology.

Do you understand that if the meaning of sex changes then this has knock on effects re sexuality?

R0wan I don't think the level of fear and concern over self ID is proportional to the risk to girls and women. I know this has been discussed to death.

And many disagree. It's also not just about statistical risk, it's about not giving the feelings of a group of males primacy over the feelings, boundaries, privacy and dignity of women and girls. So here we are at the impasse.

Offred of course Christians try and impose their belief system on other people. Christians tell me I should not be able to marry the person I love because their imaginary friend does not approve of it. I get it. I can empathise with you feeling infuriated that laws are being made based on a belief system you don't share.

The GRA has been around for ages now and no harm has come to women because of it. You might not share the belief system that lead to the GRA but surely you can see that having it in place is important for trans people?

Thanks Daim, it's interesting what you say about your friend, but I have to agree with other posters that it's not the way that a person acts or dresses that determines whether that person is a girl or woman. In my opinion it's purely down to chromosomes. I wouldn't have been skipping or doing my hair with you, I would have been climbing trees and riding my bike with the boys. That doesn't make me a boy.

Rowan, thank you. I haven't spotted that newbie thread, I'll have a read.

That Miranda Yardley article is interesting. It's always annoyed me that girls clothes and toys aimed at girls are generally pink. It puts undue pressure on little girls to be girly too as their peers chime in 'thats a boy's xxx' when parents rebel and get the primary coloured toy.

You can marry the person you love, it is incorrect to say that Christians are forcing you not to be able to.

Christians want to retain the ability to discriminate against same sex couples and not be forced to marry them in their churches. There are many other places you can get married, and other religions that will carry out a same sex marriage.

But frankly it's like playing chess with pigeons; you know you've made a clever move then they kick away the pieces and shit on the board. It's rarely a rewarding game to play. @RatRolyPoly

You see, your problem is that you think YOU are more intelligent than the pigeons. You think you know all the moves, you think you know what the pigeons are going to do next. You don't. Because the pigeons are actually very smart, and they have a counter move for every single move you make. Only, because you don't like not being the only one with an opinion, you think their opinion is shit and it's actually you, time and time again, tossing the whole board in the air and sulking away.

Do you understand that the TRAs are the ones arguing that the GRA should be changed?

What organisations like woman’s place are asking for is that since changing the legal meaning of sex affects everyone it is not something that only affects trans people and should not be treated as though it does.

What has now happened is that GC feminists have realised that the GRA in it’s current form has implications re changing the meaning of sex. This is not something they necessarily realised before.

The GRA has been around for ages now and no harm has come to women because of it.

Really?

Most women weren't aware of it. There are some (perhaps unintended) consequences that affect women and girls.

"Much of their campaigning remained on the quiet. The passage of the 2004 law to give trans people legal status was "remarkable," says Burns, because "the government was able to pass an entire act in parliament without anyone throwing a fit in the press""
www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jan/22/voices-from-trans-community-prejudice

Re Christians they have asked their beliefs be protected in such a way that gay people existing don’t impinge on them in their spaces. It’s a different thing. The historical position was that the Christians controlled the entire legal existence of homosexuals. Now they only control their own churches.