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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please change my mind : trans

307 replies

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 17:52

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

OP posts:
RatRolyPoly · 31/05/2018 13:15

A woman with a GRC is not a "trans woman" as a point of law.

Agreed, although I guess the really pedantic version would be to say they are a woman with the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. I shorthanded that down to "transwoman".

She has therefore been female all her life as is no more a trans woman than you are unless she is for instance gender fluid.

She is a transwoman in that she has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

FYI the birth certificate change does not change the original entry in the birth register. This is accessible by, for example, police and other authorities as required.

It is simply that a new birth certificate is issued to be used for administrative purposes.

RatRolyPoly · 31/05/2018 13:20

I should thank JayceeDove for teaching me all the ins and outs of the GRC process :)

I miss Jaycee.

Italiangreyhound · 01/06/2018 00:59

@GibbertyFlibbert "She has therefore been female all her life as is no more a trans woman than you are..."

That's the trouble, you want people to believe a male, perhaps who fathered children, perhaps who still has balls and penis, is female like females.

It's fiction.

And demanding people believe this is true and has always been true weakens the whole thing.

Just let trans women be trans women. Protect everyone from unfair dismissal or violence etc. But you won't make me believe things that are simply not true. It'd losing trans people support. Ultimately, I think we should do away with gender. Just have biological sex. Some unisex places and single sex spaces and protection for everyone. But stop gaslighting women and girls.

Italiangreyhound · 01/06/2018 01:12

GibbertyFlibbert I should say it is fine for you to have different opinions of course, and you are free to believe what you want to believe.

But I think Ultimately this current rhetoric id unhelpful. Why not campaign for safe spaces, for equal rights in jobs or whatever. But trying to make others believe a certain thing that jars against what we know makes a person make it female, to me it just seems like it switches people off.

It definitely DoD with me. I used to post trans friendly articles and videas and sign petitions etc.

Then I was faced with something I could not believe. Not something necessarily I didn't want to believe, could not believe. It's left me feeling disappointed, I hate not being 'liberal' minded. But to me, I would have to deny reality. And actually what I want for all people is protection, safety, equality etc. But it doesn't mean reality has to shift.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 01/06/2018 09:54

What italian said

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 01/06/2018 11:03

I found this interesting,

Faceicle · 01/06/2018 13:28

Good post **Italian

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 19:00

YY. Great posts, Italian.

Picassospaintbrush · 01/06/2018 19:12

Hell, that Cornwall thread is a nightmare.

The pitchforks are out. The liberal fems are really illiberal!

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 19:36

Perhaps we should do "change my mind: hijabs?" For everyone to thrash out their personal views. And not shit up every thread.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 19:37

Perhaps we should do "change my mind: hijabs?" For everyone to thrash out their personal views. And not shit up every thread.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 19:38

Argh stupid train posts!

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 19:47

I think there is room to discuss patriarchal religion, and the oppression of women, definitely.

Picassospaintbrush · 01/06/2018 19:48

Hijabs are the new pitchfork. we all have to be jabbed with them repeatedly till we bow down.

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 19:50

Women protesting the forced Hijab in Iran, days after the 1979 Revolution.

Please change my mind : trans
Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 20:10

I always remember those pictures Toe.

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 20:22

I think there is room to discuss patriarchal religion, and the oppression of women, definitely.

Yes I agree. I'm not interested in people's religion either way. Im not going to say all is great with Islam any more than I am with Christianity or any other patriarchal institution. I don't do cultural relativism or feel that other cultures are beyond criticism. I'm interested in misogyny all around the world and I am not going to pretend that many sub cultures aren't objectively misogynistic. Whataboutery about our own misogynistic society doesn't wash with me.

But going to shut up about it now because this isn't the thread for it and I'm being a hypocrite.

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 20:27

Eresh, I was hoping they's follow the honey trail over here... get them away from the Cornwall threads.

Accusations of "white feminism" are just the latest way to tell women they're doing feminism wrong. Always by transactivists/allies.

I stand with posie and her right to discuss/criticise the hijab when talking about the oppression of women/girls.

Picassospaintbrush · 01/06/2018 20:36

"White feminism" is not wanting to resubmit to religious dogma. This seems to be a bad thing.

Apparently we have to to be woke.

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 20:38

We are called upon to be so tolerant of everything anyone wants to do now, that there is no room for critique, free thought, or discussion of ideas, for fear of offending someone. This is not a good thing. Stephen Fry (who incidentally, recently shared a platform with Jordan Peterson) is very good on this subject.

Picassospaintbrush · 01/06/2018 20:56

The intolerance shown by the tolerant however is astonishing.

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 21:12

Sorry, I went back on that thread. I couldn't let it lie, could I....

Ereshkigal · 01/06/2018 21:14

Your posts are great.

Picassospaintbrush · 01/06/2018 21:14

You wouldn't let it lie.

ToeToToe · 01/06/2018 21:20
Grin
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