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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please change my mind : trans

307 replies

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 17:52

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 30/05/2018 13:41

Bowlofbabelfish maybe so, but what have we got to go on apart from our own experiences?

We start from our own experiences as children, but we learn that our lives are always only ever a tiny part of society. That our beliefs are not necessarily correct. That perception can be deceptive. That belief is not a foundation for a healthy life or society.

We base perhaps our own little lives on beliefs, but when it comes to putting the laws in place to govern society, or to create medical guidelines, we use an evidence base. we have to, because society is everyone. That’s why we have to have a secular society, because the alternative is either banning all religion or enforcing one religion on all.

Public health for example - there have been many improvements in medicine when we’ve switched from ‘oh this is how we do it everyone knows these patients need this’ to ‘let’s look at evidence based to decide policy.’

It’s evidence, facts, and objectivity we need. Belief is for the personal sphere- it can’t be legislated on.

The GRA as is is not a hugely problematic bit of legislation. It does have flaws though, the language around changing sex should be updated to protect the characteristic of transgender but remove the legal fudge of saying the person has changed sex.

What is going to cause the problems is self ID, further changes to GRA and removal of sex based exemptions.

Offred · 30/05/2018 13:46

It doesn’t infuriate me that laws might be made based on a belief system I don’t share. I think it is necessary to make laws that protect the right to belief.

What I am worried about is laws that mandate everyone has to have the same belief and that these laws that are proposed will have the effect of erasing sex based differentiation which will harm the most vulnerable groups they were designed to protect; women, trans people and homosexual people.

Offred · 30/05/2018 13:50

I’m an atheist for example, having grown up catholic, I very strongly agree with protection for Catholics re their beliefs. What I would disagree with was law that protected Catholic belief only as this would have similar discriminatory knock on effects re beliefs that are not catholic and classes such as ‘female’ and ‘homosexual’.

Offred · 30/05/2018 13:53

In the past the law conflated Christianity with morality.

What is being proposed here is that the law comprehensively conflates gender identity (belief) with sex (fixed class).

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 14:01

differentnameforthis a valiant attempt to psychoanalyse me, except you don't appear to have read any of my posts...

There are smart pigeons with whom I enjoy a game of chess; those smart pigeons I frequently remind that I have no problem with their disagreeing with me, it is simply that I want them to see it is possible that someone might disagree also with them and not be a complete and total muppet. Obviously I hate anyone else having an opinion; but if they didn't, whoever would I talk to?

I rarely "sulk" away - in fact I'm annoyingly present I understand - but when I do it's not because of some super clever move; I simply prefer an exchange of views to an exchange of insults. Unless of course name calling is that super clever move you're referring to?

Anyway, I wasn't much up for replying (still busy) but you did @mention me so I thought it would be rude not to. Maybe try less generic next time.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/05/2018 14:02

How is the little one rat

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 14:03

At home with daddy pending doctor's appointment Rufus; I have to be at work - financial month end :(

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/05/2018 14:28

Honestly sorry to hear that rat

Its poopy when we cant help when they are sick

daimbars · 30/05/2018 14:33

Wishing DC a speedy recovery RatRolyPoly x

Bowlofbabelfish · 30/05/2018 14:45

Re small rat - hope they’re on the mend soon. It’s hard when you can’t be there Flowers

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 14:58

Awww, cheers folks :)

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 30/05/2018 15:32

No problem rat Smile

Ereshkigal · 30/05/2018 17:34

There are smart pigeons with whom I enjoy a game of chess; those smart pigeons

Or perhaps they are the people and you're the pigeon? Pigeons probably have a limited perception of interspecies differences after all.

MillyTheKid · 30/05/2018 17:44

This thread should have been titled 'I've clearly already made up my mind: trans'

AssassinatedBeauty · 30/05/2018 17:46

@MillyTheKid but she's obviously completely wrong, so can you tell her (and anyone else lurking) why she's completely wrong?

R0wantrees · 30/05/2018 20:28

lurker33
You may find this interesting reading:
(extract)
"When I first started feeling concerned about the kinds of things a lot of trans people were saying, I looked forward to hearing arguments that would help to shape my ideas one way or another. Part of me wanted to be convinced by the trans activists and so rekindle the warmth and compassion I’d felt after hearing the likes of Rikki Arundel and Stephen Whittle and watching the My Transsexual Summer series (see My Peak Trans Story). While it’s been frustrating and disappointing to find that so many trans activists’ arguments are short on reason and overly emotional, at least they have helped me to clarify my own position...." continues
www.peaktrans.org/bad-arguments/

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 20:50

There are smart pigeons with whom I enjoy a game of chess

Nothing quite like being referred to as sub human on the Feminist boards of MN. Your demeaning "jokes" at women's expens make my skin crawl.

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 20:56

It is like having a discussion with an Evangelical or a Flat Earther, or perhaps more accurately trying to have a discussion with Humpty Dumpty.

Italiangreyhound · 30/05/2018 20:57

@RatRolyPoly hope little one is well soon. Thanks

TerfsUp · 30/05/2018 21:02

@bewilderness, you could look at it from another perspective. The OP plays chess with creatures of the same level of intelligence, ie pigeons. Anything more intelligent than pigeons and the OP loses the game...

SupermatchGame · 30/05/2018 21:47

The GRA as is is not a hugely problematic bit of legislation. It does have flaws though, the language around changing sex should be updated to protect the characteristic of transgender but remove the legal fudge of saying the person has changed sex.

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex. What else would be the point of it? Gender has become meaningless - there are a hundred different genders. It is the EA that protects the characteristic of transgender regardless of GRA.

thebewilderness · 30/05/2018 21:52

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex.
For the purpose of same sex marriage, which is now legal.

Ereshkigal · 30/05/2018 21:53

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex.

It doesn't. A legal fiction is created with this certificate that they are the opposite sex for most purposes. Except in the case of the legal exemptions which exist.

RatRolyPoly · 30/05/2018 21:59

The whole point of the GRA is that it changes a person's legal sex

A legal fiction is created with this certificate that they are the opposite sex

These two statements mean the same thing.

Baroquehavoc · 30/05/2018 22:12

A GRC can't really change a person's legal sex if they can be legally excluded from sex based services, can it?

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