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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please change my mind : trans

307 replies

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 17:52

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

OP posts:
ToeToToe · 29/05/2018 17:59

Welcome to the club Thanks I feel the same as you.

BeyondSceptical · 29/05/2018 18:05

Hi lurker. I will wait with you - with baited breath - for a response that disagrees with you coherently... Grin

Would you rather we wait quietly, or would you like to chat while we do?

gendercritter · 29/05/2018 18:07

I think a lot of people have been on the same journey you're on.

I wish no harm to trans people. I want to live in a kind world where diversity is celebrated and everyone is safe. But trans women are men and have totally different life experiences to women. It is so, so important to be able to say there is a difference. Women are still oppressed the world over. There is still lots of work for feminism to do. Trans rights are a completely separate thing.

AssassinatedBeauty · 29/05/2018 18:08

I'm of much the same opinion. Really, the panel could have been 2 women, 1 trans woman and 2 men. Make men budge over to accommodate trans women.

Beerincomechampagnetastes · 29/05/2018 18:09

Why do we need to change your mind 🤷‍♀️
You’re making sense to me.
That’s your female socialisation asking.

busyboysmum · 29/05/2018 18:11

Makes sense to me.

I'm of the same opinion.

thebewilderness · 29/05/2018 18:21

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are...

That is not the transgender identified males struggle.
The transgender identified males struggle is to be accepted as what they are not. They are already accepted as transgender.

newtlover · 29/05/2018 18:24

transphilic, that's a new word to me
OP your instincts are correct and I doubt anyone on here will take issue with you- I have always identified as feminist and it took a while for my feelings of unease to trump my 'live and let live, people should be allowed to be however they want' instinct- I saw trans interests as naturally allied to those of LGB people. Now I see them as opposed.
Welcome to the club! Welcome to 'the wrong side of history' !(NOT- as the youth say Grin)

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 18:29

Beyond - thank you, happy to wait at the moment, will be popping in and out of the thread to check whilst keeping an eye on the kids.

Assassinated - yes, I agree. I'm still a bit stunned by my reaction tho as it wasn't billed as a equal line up or anything.

Beer - I'm not sure, I just feel like there ought to be a coherent debate without mud slinging, whilst trying to keep an open mind. Yes, I think it's the female socialisation talking.

OP posts:
FaithSeed · 29/05/2018 18:30

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Twunk · 29/05/2018 18:34

Ah Faithseed I see you have come to reassure the OP that in fact her concerns aren’t in the slightest bit justified. Hmm

ErrolTheDragon · 29/05/2018 18:36

Bigotry? (Definition: Intolerance towards those who hold different opinions from oneself.)

If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

These are not the words of a bigot. MN is a public forum - if you have coherent arguments, why not take the invitation and present them?

nauticant · 29/05/2018 18:37

Nail on head there Twunk.

Did you get that OP? You have to return to being a trans ally otherwise you're a bigot. Whatever you do, you mustn't look around to see what's going on and make up your own mind.

LangCleg · 29/05/2018 18:39

As you can see OP, FaithSeed is a fabulous ambassador for all things trans. Opening gambit: you're the same as a racist. Sure fire win, right?!

AssassinatedBeauty · 29/05/2018 18:40

@FaithSeed, play to the confused lurker and explain why the OP is wrong. It's presumably very easy, then you can disengage and report anyone who you feel isn't posting in good faith

FaithSeed · 29/05/2018 18:50

Yep, equating trans with black face isn't bigoted at all. Nothing to see here. Move on.

At least you're no longer pretending it's about the likes of Danielle Muscato (sp?) And self ID enabling offences against women. There's clearly a problem with trans full stop.

lurker33 · 29/05/2018 18:54

Hello faithseed, thank you for engaging. As I said, please present a coherent argument? Men have been opressors of women for far longer than white people have been opressors of black people. There was a time before the slave trade wasn't there? Please explain why comparing to black face is wrong.

OP posts:
thebewilderness · 29/05/2018 18:56

At least you're no longer pretending it's about the likes of Danielle Muscato (sp?) And self ID enabling offences against women.

Your authoritarian slip is showing when you seek to limit how many problems women are allowed to discuss with regard to abusive males.

IndominusRex · 29/05/2018 18:57

Hi lurker, sounds like you've got a good understanding of it all!! Ignore the baity fs

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/05/2018 18:58

Yep, equating trans with black face isn't bigoted at all.

Can I ask what the difference is?

One cannot change sex
One cannot change race

To dress up as a different race and imitate that race is seen as offensive.
Why is womanface different? Can you explain to me? Without simply telling me I’m a bigot- explain why it’s wrong and what the difference is?

thebewilderness · 29/05/2018 18:59

Yep, equating trans with black face isn't bigoted at all.

Transvestism and black face! Just two of the many vile things white men do that women must never mention because men say so..

MsMcWoodle · 29/05/2018 18:59

Happy to have trans men (i.e biological women) share safe spaces. So how could I be transphobic?

SupermatchGame · 29/05/2018 19:01

I have no interest in changing your mind.

it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

We can. For a lot of trans people, it is about sex, not girls things and boys things. Many are uncomfortable with their anatomical sex, primary and secondary characteristics including face.

Here is a trans woman who is no more or less gender conforming than the non trans woman she is friends with. (If you can tolerate the Arielle looks at/ shows people genitalia theme which she seems to be into this is her latest trans video).

I can see a similarity to blackface

Gender identity is very well established as a concept. Some people develop a cross sex gender identity. It's not the same as blackface because that is a parody of a type of person. Like a pantomime dame. Transitioned trans women usually believe they are genuinely women, and psychiatry would back that up in terms of them having a female core gender identity. All difficult to demonstrate empirically of course because we are dealing with aspects of identity in a human brain.
www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/news/20160517-faq-on-health-and-sexual-diversity.pdf

please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

There are many trans women who are accepted as women because they are perceived as women, in every day life. Not so much by your average rad fem with their high spec transidentifying radar systems. But there are. Many of them, particularly those that transitioned young, face similar casual sexism and discrimination despite not being able to get pregnant.

PositivelyPERF · 29/05/2018 19:02

Oh you are funny FaithSeed. Poster asks questions, but the only answer you can give is TERF! How original. How helpful. How typical. 😒

pombear · 29/05/2018 19:03

Hmm, I keep noticing that this is where the trans rights activists are missing the nuance and tone of those coming to this debate when they try to deflect any debate/accuse people of transphobia and bigotry.

From what I've read here and other places, many many people who are now asking questions don't stem from the BNP/racist/homophobic/anything-different-from-me-I-hate pool.

Many of us have been campaigners, supporters, allies, or actually part of minority/oppressed groups (including the category female!) and to do this in the past we have had to be logical, questioning, able to debate points of view. And had shit thrown at us for our viewpoints.

Many of us have been where lurker33 is right now, and felt conflicted as they do now, to suddenly appear 'phobic' or hateful.

And yet the only tools in the TRA-kit seems to be 'you're a bigot', 'you don't understand biology past GCSE', 'you're hateful'.

They seem to be shouting at a group of people they really don't understand. And the shouting doesn't work. If anything, it sort of shows their hand and helps the pro-women and girls' rights argument each and every time.

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