Please change my mind : trans

[lurker33]

I've been lurking in the feminist boards for a while now, watching the discussions on trans. I am generally a live and let live kind of person, as long as it's not affecting anyone else adversely. Unfortunately I am coming to the conclusion that transgenderism is not a good thing; mainly because it appears to be reinforcing gender stereotypes. Why can't we have boys that like traditionally girls things and girls that like traditionally boys things?

Recently I was at an event where there were people who were talking about their experiences in a technical, male dominated area. 5 speakers were billed, two of which were women. Oh, well done organisers of said event I thought, for providing a well balanced panel of speakers, including two women who I could hold up as role models to my 8 yo daughter who had attended with me.

On further reading it transpired that one of the women billed was actually a transwoman.

How can I hold up a transwoman as a role model for my daughter, especially one who has transitioned late in life? My daughter won't have the same opportunities that a boy growing up will have, won't have to put up with the casual sexism us women all have to deal with, and quite frankly my daughter has nothing at all in common with this speaker.

It made me quite angry, which surprised me, and it dawned on me that calling transwoman a woman is actually an insult to women. I'll get flamed for this I'm sure but I can see a similarity to blackface where it's insulting for a white person to pretend to be black as white people are opressors of black people. It's insulting for a man to say he is a woman when men are opressors of women.

I do acknowledge the transwoman's struggle to be accepted for who they are, but that struggle has nothing in common with the struggle that women go though every day. Transwomen should be free to live their lives as they see fit but please don't think they have anything in common with women other than being part of the human race.

Transwomen are transwomen and are of the male sex, women are women and are of the female sex. There is nothing wrong with excluding people from a group if they don't have any attributes of that group. If you are insulted by scientific fact then perhaps you need to think again.

I am not sure what I am asking really. My female socialisation means that I feel slightly dirty for having come to this conclusion. If there are any transphilic people out there, I am happy to have my mind changed if you provide me with some coherent arguments as to why I shouldn't feel this way.

As you've explained,Rat, your point of view boils down to "be nice, and accommodating". Nothing more than that

I'd say it also boils down to a belief one can hold a gender identity different to one's sex which is separate to gender stereotypes even though there's no concrete evidence there is any such thing.

It doesn't determine their starting physical sex. It determines the sex with which they identify.

It doesn’t just determine the sex with which they identify though does it? It is used to determine the sex group to which they belong and in many cases it is stated that they have always belonged to that sex group.

I forgot you don’t believe in AGP!

Some lesbians simulate a penis using 'attachments' - I wonder if that is offensive

If a penis was a sentient being it would be. Since it’s a body part it’s no more offensive that dressing up as a foot.

Womanface is no different to blackface. It’s also a very different mode of dress and presentation to that used by most individuals with gender dysphoria.

I really wish that more focus was put on the differences between the two groups. Genuine transwoman, with gender dysphoria and a wish to/in progress/completed transition vs autogynephiles. Two very different presentations, motivations and outlooks.

Hi op. Many of us have trodden this path. You’ll get used to being called a bigot. It loses its sting pretty quickly when it’s used indiscriminately to mean “anyone who disagrees with me”

It doesn't determine their starting physical sex. It determines the sex with which they identify.

If it was WITH which we wouldn’t be having this argument.
But it’s AS which. So we are.

Identify with women, I’m right with you. Identify as one, when you’re not, and we have issues.

I really wish that more focus was put on the differences between the two groups. Genuine transwoman, with gender dysphoria and a wish to/in progress/completed transition vs autogynephiles. Two very different presentations, motivations and outlooks.

I'd see that the reason that it isn't is because the aggressive overbearing push into women's spaces was and is driven in large part by group 2. #girlslikeus

There's a thread going elsewhere at the moment (AIBU, chat? I don't remember) started by a mum whose daughter is choosing GCSEs, and has been told by the dinosaur of an IT teacher at her school that since she'd be the only girl in the class, she should think of choosing different subjects.

When the girls find out later that the teacher said the same thing to every girl who signed up it is too late to do much about it. Misogynists have gotten away with this exclusionary tactic for years. The sub text is that the boys will harass you and so will the teacher until you drop out.

AGP as a major cause for transition or cross sex identity is not accepted by the majority of those practicing transgender medicine. It was put forward and supported by one researcher, one psychologist and one transwoman

You keep saying that supermatch but 5 minutes searching will tell you the reality.

I was exploring a trans page on reddit just yesterday. I'm paraphrasing but one male was saying transition was going too slowly and he was getting depressed because he fantasized about taking lewd, half-naked shots of himself and posting them online. He couldn't do that until he looked far more feminine, in his view.

Another man was pondering whether he was really doing the right thing having his penis removed as he still found it pleasurable using it. Someone reminded him that neo-vagina = a chance to be even more submissive as you then have 3 holes to penetrate. The op thanked him for reminding him why he was on his journey and said yes he would have surgery.

AGP is everywhere online. You really don't have to dig too deep to walk slap bang into it, unfortunately.

Woah SMG. Really?

You've just pulled in to the discussion all females who use phallic-shaped toys to enhance their sex life privately either with another woman or alone ('cos vaginas tend to be shaped in a way that phallic-shaped toys work in that region regardless of whether they're attached to a man/whether the user of that phallic-shaped toy is attracted to males) to justify a sexual fetish that many 'transwomen' on the internet demand
a) at the very least, other people validate and play along with the sexual fetish even if they would rather not, and are definitely not that person's partner.
b) tells females who don't like penises that they are transphobic for doing so and if they use phallic-shaped objects in their sex life then they should accept penises, 'cos 'why not'. (See Arielle Scarcella)

1: Your mask just slipped accidentally.
2: As a result of the TRA shitshow, I follow so many 'transwomen' to know that AGP, whether medically diagnosed or not, appears to be central to a hell of a lot of 'transwomen' on social media. They just can't help showing it.

I think SmG has made it quite clear that their beliefs are impervious to reality.

Transitioned trans women usually believe they are genuinely women, and psychiatry would back that up in terms of them having a female core gender identity

Psychiatry is not really a science. I don't doubt psychiatrists help a lot of people but there are a lot of scientists who really don't value what psychiatry has to say in lots of areas. I'm sorry but it's seen as an art by many and can be quite crude still in how effective it really is in helping many.

I think psychiatry has looked at how intractable gender dysphoria is and how much some suffer with it and their response is their best way of dealing with it. Perhaps in 100 years time we will understand true gender dysphoria better as well as things like anorexia. Until then transitioning alleviates some symptoms in some people I don't believe the rare numbers suffering this condition are really the ones causing all the fuss at the moment though.

Cough AGP Cough

'Psychiatry says....' means very little. I really don't want to be rude to anyone present but psychiatry has got some things very badly wrong even in recent history, which has had a negative effect on many.

Yet in so many cases AGP is a significant vector.

Hi DN4, I agree that it wasn't the transwomen 'fault', which is why I was confused by my reaction. It wasn't even formally billed as a balanced panel other than the names listed, two of which were names usually taken by women. I guess I felt cheated as there isn't enough female representation in technical fields and at first glance it looked like the organisers had done a stirling job... But they hadn't.

With regards to those with gender dysphoria... I understand that these people are vulnerable and don't mean to demean women. However, and please correct me if I'm wrong, most of the concerns aired on this forum are for those that are not dysphoric and have a different agenda. These are the people, generally transwomen it seems, who are parodies of women and are performing 'womanface', and who I am directing my accusation of insult to.

Someone’s gender identity is not their sex though is it? Someone may be found by a psychiatrist to have a genuine cross sex gender identity but actually this is totally dependent on acknowledging that their gender identity does not match their sex and that gender identity and sex are two different things.

I'm rather of the opinion that if you believe transwomen are women then hypothetically you have to be ok with a panel with 50% men and 50% transwomen when the panel has pledged to represent both sexes. I know such a scenario is very unlikely, but still. Would they truly say women were represented in a parliament with 50% men, 50% transwomen? If not, why not, if twaw?

Hi Lurker33. I think a focus on your initial post point about 'how do you provide a role model to your daughter' is really important.

Where are the adult human females?

The adult human females who went through socialisation as child human girls, because they were female. Who broke stereotypical boundaries. Who challenged assumptions. Who achieved things despite these boundaries and assumptions.

When the adult human female places are replaced by transwomen -nb people who I accept had to break boundaries of their own - but are taking the seat on panels, discussions, areas that are marked out for adult human females to enable them to represent the boundaries and assumptions they had to challenge.

What do we tell our girls?

Where are the females?

We disappear.

hypothetically you have to be ok with a panel with 50% men and 50% transwomen when the panel has pledged to represent both sexes. I know such a scenario is very unlikely, but still.

see i don't think thats unlikely at all. wasn't there a recent meeting at parliament about girl guide safeguarding where the panel was pretty unrepresentative of, you know, women girls.

i can see lots of companies declaring how fab they are on their gender pay gap - which in fact it includes transwomen who are senior after having all the benefits of male privilege (whilst acknowledging the own challenges they may have faced - this doesn't negate the benefits they have had).

to me this is one of the main risks - the interventions aimed at increasing womens participation will be used to benefit transwomen - at the expense of women.

Not in the slightest.

Existence of gender identity is accepted by:

NHS www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Royal College of Psychiatrists "Transgender and gender-diverse people are individuals whose gender identity and/or gender role do not conform to the sex assigned to them at birth." www.rcpsych.ac.uk/

American Psychology Association www.apa.org/topics/lgbt/transgender.aspx

The American Academy of Pediatrics
www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap/aap-press-room/Pages/AAP-Statement-in-Support-of-Transgender-Children-Adolescent-and-Young-Adults.aspx

UK law - whether you agree with this or not, it is accepted by law, GRA: "the person’s sex becomes that of a man and, if it is the female gender, the person’s sex becomes that of a woman)."

Council of Europe/ ECHR edoc.coe.int/en/lgbt/6963-protecting-human-rights-of-transgender-persons.html

Not one advocate for gender identity has managed to explain what they mean by gender, how it differs from sex,

There are plenty of explanations. Meanings have changed over decades. And no doubt you can get into an interesting philosophical discussion about that, semantics, ontology, the meaning of life... Here are some definitions and explanations.
www.who.int/gender-equity-rights/news/20160517-faq-on-health-and-sexual-diversity.pdf
www.apa.org/pi/lgbt/resources/sexuality-definitions.pdf
www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

HTH

If you think that a handful of male people have some critical characteristics in common with the 3.7 billion females of the world then you'd think you'd be able to articulate this.

I think in that video I posted earlier, the two women in it have more in common with each other in terms of sex and gender than either of them have with men.

"individuals whose gender identity and/or gender role do not conform to the sex assigned to them at birth"

This surely means that any one who doesn't conform to the culturally/socially prescribed gender role is trans. So, me for example. I don't conform to many aspects of the female gender role in UK society. How many people actually do?

Misogynists have gotten away with this exclusionary tactic for years.

And this is why it's particularly important on this panel. Women and girls looking at careers in male dominated professions need female role models to aspire to and to share experiences.

Girls face subtle and not so subtle barriers to these careers that start from school, barriers that male people don't face.

This panel advertises as 40% female experience, 60% male, when in reality it's only 20% female experience.

I wonder if the women will get to talk for 20% of the time?

Transitioned trans women usually believe they are genuinely women

I’d like to hear transitioned transwomen with gender dysphoria chip in on that one because from what I’ve seen on here, that is not a given. The transwomen who post here have, to my memory, acknowledged they do not believe they have ‘become’ women. They have a more nuanced approach acknowledging they have dysphoria and a desire to become as close in physical appearance as they can, while remaining male.

and psychiatry would back that up in terms of them having a female core gender identity

Psychiatry would not back up the ‘fact’ they have become women because this is demonstrably false. Psychiatry would say they have acknowledged and received treatment for the dysphoria and that treatment had taken the path of transition, as opposed to treatment to accept the existing self.

This surely means that any one who doesn't conform to the culturally/socially prescribed gender role is trans.

That is the basis upon which they are teaching children that they are transgender. Failure to conform to rigid gender stereotypes.
The entire country should be up in arms over this abuse of children by the very people responsible for safeguarding them.

Assassinated - I have to agree with you on this. I am a woman due to my biology, however I have an engineering degree, work in tech, don't wear make up, wear trousers or shorts, pay the mortgage etc. I am definitely not trans.

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between me and someone who is not dysphoric but is a transman?

"Transgender and gender-diverse people are individuals whose gender identity and/or gender role do not conform to the sex assigned to them at birth."

Sex is not assigned at birth. It is observed.

But there’s no definition of female gender identity that fits all women. It’s undefineable. Try to do it:

Thought experiment. Youre in a room. You’re having a person described to you by a voice over a speaker. The person is not visible to you. No mention of their physical sexual characteristics is allowed. Only their actions, dress and appearance. Or anything that fits into what you feel ‘gender stereotypes’ are.

What would that person be able to describe that made you sure they were female or Male?

Let’s have an example. The person is five foot eight. They have shoulder length dark hair tied back in a bun at the nape of the neck. They wear a lab coat, Adidas trainers, jeans, a blue t shirt. They are wearing a wedding ring. The person has removed their glasses and is manipulating a dish of culture cells down a microscope ... etc etc.

You cannot say if the person is male or female without a description of their biology. There is no such thing as a set female or male gender identity

Am I trans then? I don’t fit any of the stereotypical female gender criteria. I work in a male dominated field. I wear no make up, I’m wearing jeans and a t shirt today, coincidentally the same colour and style as dh is. I’ve never fitted the ‘girl’ box.

And yet I’m a woman. I’m pregnant so I’m fairly sure of this.

I don’t have a gender identity. I am simply Me. And a woman, in terms of sex. Which was observed, not assigned, at birth.

I forgot you don’t believe in AGP!

I wouldn't say I don't believe in it. I believe there are men who are aroused by the image of themselves as women. It also exists in the histories of some trans women. It doesn't have widespread credibility for a main motivation for transition. If you look at the mix of developing identity, confusion, a developing sexuality with no appropriate way to direct it due to not being content with the sex of ones body - and add into that the high testosterone of a biological male it's not surprising that somewhere within that there is an element of misdirected erotic impulse at the self or aspects of developing gender expression.

If a penis was a sentient being it would be. Since it’s a body part it’s no more offensive that dressing up as a foot.

It is appropriating the male primary sex characteristic for sexual pleasure. Feet belong to both sexes.

Womanface is no different to blackface.

Men can wear makeup and dresses. Surely they don't just belong to women? Eddie Izzard does it but doesn't call himself a woman. Why are you not so bothered about trans men who grow beards, wear man clothes and call themselves men?

I really wish that more focus was put on the differences between the two groups. Genuine transwoman, with gender dysphoria and a wish to/in progress/completed transition vs autogynephiles. Two very different presentations, motivations and outlooks.

There are different presentations yes, but I don't think you can divide them all into just two discrete groups. I know how you like to put people in clearly labelled boxes though.