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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...

665 replies

PencilsInSpace · 28/05/2018 16:47

... at least the men's pond is Hmm

Well done to the fabulous #ManFriday gents for exposing this rank hypocricy! Splendid work, chaps Flowers

Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...
Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...
Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...
OP posts:
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19
Ekphrasis · 29/05/2018 21:23

@MunchausensLovelyHorse Thanks and thank you for the seed of the idea (and of course everyone else who's taken it further!) I do hope you're staring to feel better and I think you have an excellent point to make.

I've just had a baby and I had an elcs. Since my last baby the hospital have changed the policy regarding partners on the ward - make partners can stay all night but only have a very uncomfortable chair or the floor. I packed Dh off home to get proper sleep so he'd be of use the next day!

Luckily my recovery ward (4 bays) was unusually completely empty till early in the morning. The couple that came in were the source of much comedy to me later as the partner was so utterly exhausted despite apparently having naps and sleeps while the mother had laboured for 2 days, and she spent 2 hours in the early morning asking him to get her a cup of tea (I heard the entire birth story as she tried to point out he couldn't possibly be more tired than her plus she had many stitches after a vontuse delivery) - I nearly marched off to get it myself and I was livid when they came round in the morning with breakfast and he was offered tea!

However, I must say it was a different experience knowing that there was a man on the ward over night , my main issue was that he was using the loo, right next to my bay, that was set up for women to have first wees and measure their wee, deal with lochia etc. And he kept leaving the toilet seat up.

I wasn't hugely bothered in reality but it did make me wonder about a full ward with potentially 3 strange men around at night when I'm feeling so vulnerable, bleeding, attempting to breastfeed etc. And using the clearly marked women's/ patients only loo.

At the same time I do recognise the bonus of flexibility in being able to have your partner stay a bit later or all night - I would have appreciated it with my first emcs. But I don't know how women who've been abused etc would feel in all honesty.

SophoclesTheFox · 29/05/2018 21:23

#handsoffmyhyst is pretty good.

There's something around no womb/no room maybe? But it's been a long day & I can't think.

MunchausensLovelyHorse · 29/05/2018 21:28

@SwearyG of course, please do - there must be a better hashtag out there but anything is better than nothing right now I reckon!

I am so extraordinarily pleased that women on here are 'getting it' about the appropriation of hysterectomy by TRAs.

SophoclesTheFox · 29/05/2018 21:37

I totally get it, munchausens.

It enrages me. The utter cluelessness about what women experience that ends up in hyst for us.

It's not OK. Closely followed in my book by transwomen who believe they have periods and go through menopause, and the use of the term "HRT" to refer to hormone therapy given to males. Not OK. And all of it reveals how little they know about what actually happens, what the actual processes are, and what women actually go through.

R0wantrees · 29/05/2018 21:37

There have been similar appropriations of women's infertility.

Turns out Hampstead swimming ponds are single SEX after all ...
Waddlelikeapenguin · 29/05/2018 21:49

MunchausensLovelyHorse Flowers hysterectomy is a uniquely female experience

I am very late but I finally got to listen & Amy you were brilliant!! JF got far more breathy airtime than you but you spoke so well & made your points clearly StarGin
(You also sound so calm whilst I was raging just listening to the patronising sighs & "has she read the law" Angry )

ChickenMe · 29/05/2018 21:51

Ekphrasis I did feel similarly when on the antenatal ward. But also conflicted because of course we do want our partners there.
I was in terrible pain for days with an OP baby and spent most of my time shuffling back and forth to the loo because bearing down whilst sitting facing the cistern (tip for anyone who has a back to back baby) was the only tiny relief available.
I couldn't bear to wear anything other than a nightie and knickers
Similarly in post natal ward with rock hard boobs leaking everywhere and I actually did cry on someone's husbands shoulder as mine had been dispatched home to feed the cat-all dignity had gone by then

I don't know what the solution is but it does bring it into focus I think how vulnerable we can feel.

Anyway - great job to everyone involved, thanks so much for doing this.

Pratchet · 29/05/2018 22:03

Alison Pearson has a piece in the telegraph, did anyone link ?

EmpressOfSpartacus · 29/05/2018 22:04

Just listened. You were brilliant, Amy!

Pratchet · 29/05/2018 22:04

I'm sorry I arrived at a sensitive moment

EmpressOfSpartacus · 29/05/2018 22:06

I don't think anyone's linked, Pratchet.

Melamin · 29/05/2018 22:07

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/happened-spent-day-identifying-man/
You need an account with them Sad, but you can read the comments without Grin

BettyBaggins · 29/05/2018 22:13

Beards, balls, stoning, angry men in trunks, brave warriors in mankini's....wow!

I want a beard. Anyone knitting them? The monty python look helps get the supportive men with penises onside doesnt it! Social media campaign on fridays? Selfies with beards? #ManFriday

Am sure some helpful men with penises would offer to go swim in womens pool to aid the cause if that needs to happen again. Not very comfortable about any lurking until you spot a man with penis swimming there to make a complaint. A set up would be preferable. Stalking a prossibly shy near post op man to woman with no ulterior motive but to swim wouldnt be very peaceful, could be considered cruel.

I understand one woman being attacked by a man in a skirt is too many but if you started reading the huge list of women that Harvey toadface Weinstein abused you may agree a list could aid the cause.

My protesting tends to centre around racism and making public the racist people who threaten 'protestors against racism'. Who are the ringleaders threatening the utter neccessary safeguarding of women? I shall set my terriers on them! Their denial in a womans fear of attack is cognitive dissonance at its foulest. I do appreciate some men who self identify as women and look more 'obvious' they were men can be under fear of attack too. Are other safe places required for preop?

Oh and what do we want? Wheres the line? No physical penis over the age of 14 in womens spaces? Can a preop come in ever? When? Does having a penis removed make a violent offender a non violent offender? So many questions people are nervous to ask and answer. I have no answers but I want single sex loos for safety and smell frankly! I agree the mixed pool should be for self identifying.

(Sorry if I got any terms wrong, new to the modern conversation but I was raised to protest by my feisty Mum at Greenham common and want to know that whilst rape exists I and my daughter and grand-daughters can find women only spaces.)

spontaneousgiventime · 29/05/2018 22:14

I have an account, so copied it.

ver the weekend, I decided to “identify as male”. I would watch a lot of sport on TV, occasionally looking up to ask: “What’s for dinner?”

I would think about mowing the lawn, but would decide that the ground was still too wet and it was better to give it another day to dry out. I would check the cricket score and groan. I would ask my other half: “Where did we put my X?” I would open a bottle of red wine to “let it breathe”, and take the Telegraph crossword to the loo for 26 minutes. I would check the cricket score and pour myself a glass of red wine.

“Where did we put my X?”, I would ask Himself, who had come in with an ominous number of carrier bags full of new clothes and shoes. “Don’t you mean, where did YOU put it, darling?” he said. Honestly, no call for sarcasm. Men! He’s been impossible during the menopause.

Naturally, while identifying as male, I would give myself a good couple of hours to mentally prepare for the Champions League final, texting my friend Clare, a lifelong Liverpool fan, and engaging in vital, pre-match analysis.

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––

I would raid the larder for snacks. “Where did you put the Pringles?” I would pour myself a well-earned drink after a surprisingly demanding day. “Let’s get an Indian, shall we?”

If the Government has its loony way with the Gender Recognition Act, people will be able to declare themselves to be a man or woman to get all the legal rights of either sex
I would watch the match while Himself brought me my Korma on a tray. Later, I would endlessly rehearse the wonders of a bicycle-kick goal scored by Gareth Bale while Himself cleared up after the takeaway. “Darling, where did we put my… ?”

Not very complicated this bloke business, is it? I reckon I could fit it in while identifying as female. If the Government has its loony way with the Gender Recognition Act, we may soon have to. Changes to the Act could enable people to simply declare themselves to be a man or woman to get all the legal rights of either sex.

Three cheers for the doughty dames who crashed the male-only bathing pond on Hampstead Heath to protest this absurdity, much to the annoyance of the front-crawling chaps. The group was inspired by #ManFriday, a nationwide campaign by Mumsnet to encourage women to “self-identify” as men on Fridays, thus pointing out the hazards of allowing men to use single-sex facilities.

To highlight the hazards of allowing men to use single-sex loos, the #ManFriday campaign encourages women to “self-identify” as men on Fridays
To highlight the hazards of allowing men to use single-sex loos, the #ManFriday campaign encourages women to “self-identify” as men on Fridays CREDIT: LUCY NICHOLSON/REUTERS
The female protestors had fake beards and one brave lady sported a mankini. (She looked like a Rubens trapped in a yellow condom.) They told staff at the pond that, as they now “identified” as male, they had every right to swim there, but were forced to leave when police arrived.

Protestor Hannah Clarke sounded distinctly, er, female when she apologised profusely for protesting. “I would hate to think I had upset anybody here today,” she said. Oh, do man up, woman!

“We want to keep single-sex places single-sex,” Hannah continued. “Clearly, it’s not just women that want them to stay single-sex, is it?”

Truly, we live in confusing times for people of both, either or neither gender. In an article on Poldark for Radio Times, the broadcaster Mariella Frostrup admits, with welcome frankness, to a double-standard when it comes to women expressing desire for the gorgeous, smouldering Captain Ross as he emerges from the waves, naked save for a tactical cloth over his demelzas.

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Sweary Godmother
@SwearyGodmother
#ManFriday at Hampstead Ponds ended up slightly more confrontational than expected...#waronwomen#sexmatters#randomactsofmanliness

3:16 PM - May 28, 2018
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Just as it is deemed perfectly respectable for women to fall into an ecstatic reverie over Daniel Craig, also coming out of the sea in Speedos briefer than an MI6 codeword. In under a decade, we have moved from wet T-shirt contests (disgusting, misogynistic, exploitative, sexist) to hot men in wet trunks (phwoar!). Is this what is meant by equality?

As Frostrup says: “If a male colleague had penned those lines about any of Aidan Turner’s equally appealing female co-stars, his cries of contrition would be drowned out by twitter’s Troll Chorus.”

Funnily enough, Eleanor Tomlinson, the stunning redhead who plays Poldark’s fiery wife, has just said she expects to be paid as much as the drama’s eponymous star. While, presumably, retaining the right to not be treated as a sex object, which is how Aidan Turner is regarded every time he whips off his shirt to cut the grass. Surprising how much vigorous scything those Cornish backyards need of a Sunday evening.

I’m not complaining. Captain Ross’s lightly glistening pecs are one of life’s delightful diversions. But is it fair that female viewers are allowed to celebrate Poldark’s return, in a spirit of giggly girly gawping, while male viewers increasingly live in fear of expressing admiration for the opposite sex, lest they find themselves falling foul of a furious #MeToo thread on social media?

Broadcaster Mariella Frostrup admits to a double-standard when it comes to women expressing desire for Poldark star Aidan Turner
Broadcaster Mariella Frostrup admits to a double-standard when it comes to women expressing desire for Poldark star Aidan Turner CREDIT: PA/ BBC
An American actress complained recently that a critic who had described her character as wearing “baggy clothing” was clearly implying he would prefer her to have been wearing something more tight-fitting. When we reach the point where a simple, factual description of appearance (chosen by costume designer and director) is seen as egregiously sexist, then we are entering a potentially very dark chapter in male-female relations.

The second series of Margaret Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale, just beginning on Channel 4, is a chilling reminder of what a puritan society, drained of all joy and humour, looks like. (I found the first episode almost too upsetting to watch.)

In the green room at the Hay Festival on Monday, I saw Atwood herself surrounded by girls dressed in the handmaids’ shame-red dresses and penitential white bonnets. The story is said to have acquired a spooky relevance in an America where the President’s advice on attractive women is to “grab ’em by the pussy”.

It might equally be seen as a cautionary tale for the #MeToo movement as it targets men – some monsters, others mere flawed mortals. This makes many women, who would otherwise be supportive, feel uncomfortable. If the perfectly natural admiration of the female form is suppressed, and compliments are seen as oppressive not charming, then how long before women are advised to cover themselves as a barrier against male desire? And we all know where that ends up.

For a man to lawfully be allowed to simply announce he is a woman, or vice versa, gets us into deep water - and not just Hampstead Ponds
The Government must think again about making changes to the Gender Recognition Act. For a man to lawfully be allowed to simply announce he is a woman, or vice versa, gets us into deep water, and not just in Hampstead men’s bathing pond. Most people don’t mind men’s clubs or girls’ nights. (Better things to worry about.) Most people prefer the privacy and refuge of single-sex lavatories. Most people enjoy the snap, crackle and pop of difference between the sexes. Most people don’t identify with any of this stuff.

When I tried to “identify as a man”, I found myself resorting to gender stereotypes (apologies to male readers; I’m sure you can get your own dinner and don’t check the cricket score more than, ooh, three times an hour!). A woman should be allowed to be however and whoever she wants. So should a man. No need to “identify” as the other.

Now, if you’ll forgive me, I must go off and practice my Bale bicycle kick.

SwearyG · 29/05/2018 22:15

It’s a bit sneery. They never talk to us, just copy other papers. And always take my photographs - mind you I don’t look like a crazy, biscuit obsessed loon this time!

Pratchet · 29/05/2018 22:22

It is a bit sneery. The telegraph doesn't take it seriously in the same way as the Times.

MunchausensLovelyHorse · 29/05/2018 22:25

I hope I meet you one day, @SwearyG - and Amy - and get the chance to write about you and record this piece of women's history.

SwearyG · 29/05/2018 22:25

Never thought I’d say this but the Telegraph has really gone downhill since Murdoch left. (Not that one, the CEO McLennan).

spontaneousgiventime · 29/05/2018 22:28

I rarely read the Telegraph, I will if I see something on Twitter or here. I have had my account quite a while it's free I've just paid for a Times subscription.

FermatsTheorem · 29/05/2018 22:30

There are gender-critical corners of the Torygraph - the Alex cartoon in the business section has been quietly making fun of the excesses of the trans movement for ages (if you have a subscription, check it out - you will find Steph strangely reminiscent of someone who has been mentioned in FWR Grin), and I get the impression Michael Deacon may be quietly GC. But you're right, they haven't really published any decent stuff tackling the issue head on (which is surprising, as they do have feminist writers who write for them regularly - including Julie Bindel).

R0wantrees · 29/05/2018 22:42

The Independent: "Trans rights campaigners say 'Man Friday' Hampstead Heath protest was 'transphobic'
'It makes fun of those less fortunate as the people taking part are clearly not trans and will not be affected by any changes to the law'"

(extract)
"Susie Green, the chief executive of Mermaids, which campaigns for trans equality, said: “Our organisation finds this kind of demonstration worrying as it targets a marginalised and discriminated group of people.

"It makes fun of those less fortunate as the people taking part are clearly not trans and will not be affected by any changes to the law.

“It’s clearly transphobic - they’re mocking trans people.”

Pro-LGBT+ rights advocates also say that groups like Man Friday are conflating the Gender Recognition Act and the Equality Act"
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/man-friday-hampstead-heath-protest-transphobic-lgbt-rights-a8374651.html

athingthateveryoneneeds · 29/05/2018 22:47

So let me get this straight - a trans person can be trans sometimes, all the time, or whenever the mood strikes, but only non-females. If females follow their example, they are clearly not trans.

Their logic is built on shifting sands.

UpstartCrow · 29/05/2018 22:55

I've typed a transcript. Can anyone tell me how to file share?

Popchyk · 29/05/2018 22:57

Dunno Upstart.

You'd need a man for that.

UpstartCrow · 29/05/2018 22:57

Dammit, its only Tuesday or I could have done it myself.

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