Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

Differentiating to control where I pee does not make sense.

Women have been telling you why it does make sense, and matters, ever since you first started commenting here. You just don't give a shit.

Also I'm trying not to engage with Rat because of the old adage about wrestling a pig, but really, that comment about adulthood equaling sexual maturity was beyond awful. I was sexually mature in the sense of menstruating and needing to wear a bra by 10. If you think a 10 year old is an adult, or would be considered one by anyone other than a pedophile, then your moral compass broken.

If you think a 10 year old is an adult, or would be considered one by anyone other than a pedophile, then your moral compass broken.

Who even has those sorts of thoughts in their head? Still at least we know now. RCat is out of the bag so to speak.

No shit. On a forum for mothers, too, possibly the internet space in which people are least likely to tolerate that sort of "logic".

I have stated before - I am happy to have "women" include trans women in social contexts (as has been the social situation for a long time), but not to have that definition written into law.

It has not been "the social situation for a long time." That is simply not true of most places.
While Lesbians and Gays do not have a Green Book listing safe places for them to use when traveling they do share information on safe and unsafe businesses, and transsexuals have made use of the information as well.

My God!! Rat really has shown their true colours today.

“I actually think all the problems started with the GRC process. The idea of legally giving status to men who performed stereotypical femininity for two years has essentially cemented gender in law, just at the point where it was beginning to be smashed up.”

I couldn’t agree more. I think a large part of the problem is many people still think of men who perform stereotypical femininity, as being somehow lesser men, than other more masculine men. And women who refuse to perform traditional femininity as being lesser women or more like men. It is on this deeply sexist and homophobic premise that the GRA was enacted. In a society that was truly accepting of non confirming men and woman and gays and lesbians, a law like this would never have been passed in the first place.

I would like to ask those who consider TIM as being less of a man or more of a woman. Do you also consider gay men as being more like women or as lesser men, or lesbians as being more like men or as lesser women? Or camp gay men and butch lesbians in particular? What about gay men who sometimes perform in drag are they lesser men? In all those instances people are just not performing the stereotypical roles, in one way or another. I think seeing a feminine man or a masculine woman as being less of their biological sex and more like the opposite sex, is actually very sexist and homophobic, even if that is not the intention.

The whole premise of this ideology and the GRA is deeply rooted in sexism and homophobia. I really don’t understand how anyone who opposes sexism and homophobia can support this ideology and the GRA, because it is completely anathema to women’s and homosexual’s rights at the very foundational level. That is without even going into the practical implications of it.

While different disciplines and different cultures do not agree on when a human reaches adulthood they do not disagree that it differentiates childhood from adulthood.
You cannot justify redefining woman from adult female to include males and exclude females because not everyone means the same age when they say the word adult.
This is ridiculous Humpty Dumpty language rules.

I'm sorry you find my struggle to be seen for what I should of been offensive I really am.

@LangCleg - Honestly I think what upsets me more than any amount of misgendering or identity politics disagreements is that you think I am being manipulative.

You really need to think twice when you consider using these classic verbal abuser tactic on a Feminist forum. Please do not insult us further by pretending you do not know they are and that you use them often.

^" It is not my intention to appropriate anything. But the simple fact, for trans people, is that we are being excluded from a club for a reason (a good reason in certain circumstances) that is not our fault (being born with the wrong body) which is infuriating for us because it is not our fault. But equally I see and empathise with the fact that many people see me as trying to take something from them.

It is not my intention to ever insult anyone. Ever. Not scare them or make them feel unsafe. Because I know how that feels.

I am not your enemy. But I understand why you see me as such and that upsets me. :/"^

From this and other things you have said I can only conclude that it is your self absorption that prevents you from seeing how creepy you sound when you write this sort of thing.

Womanhood isn't a club and if it was the bouncer would have been your dad's sperm, not a bunch of women on an internet forum.

The difference between male and man is that male includes the adults and the children of half the human population while man only refers to adults.
Female includes children and adults who make up half the human population while woman only refers to the adults.

How absurd is it that it is necessary to define the most basic concepts when talking with the nut picking disruptors who are the bane of human communication.

It says something that they've had to seize on the definition of adult, all other attempts to justify the idea that woman means what it's always meant already having failed.

Doesn't mean, rather. Trying to reason with people like this is like jogging through treacle.

They sound very immature and desperately need to get a backbone. Need to stop whining and get themselves organised.

Since when was the meaning of the word "woman" variable and up for debate?

How about the word "man"? Can we debate what that means as well?

Since when was the meaning of the word "woman" variable and up for debate?

Since Rat realized that all her other attempts to make woman not mean "adult human female" have failed. It's a bit desperate.

Hang on!! Self absorbed, whiny, immature, seizing on irrelevant definitions, like jogging through treacle trying to reason with them, nitpicking disruptions, thinking that womanhood is a club, can't organise themselves to fight their own battles, etc etc. Who does this remind us of in general? Clue- not women.

Women have been telling you why it does make sense, and matters, ever since you first started commenting here. You just don't give a shit.

I mean, the forum is full of women feeling sick to their stomachs at the period fetishists. If we normalise obvious males in women's toilets, why wouldn't such people, whether they are trans or not, put on a dress and some lippy every time they felt like getting off? It doesn't matter if there is only one of them in every town. That one person can still get around a lot of public toilets in that town.

No shit. On a forum for mothers, too, possibly the internet space in which people are least likely to tolerate that sort of "logic".

In their minds, you're the perv for noticing the logic!

You really need to think twice when you consider using these classic verbal abuser tactic on a Feminist forum. Please do not insult us further by pretending you do not know they are and that you use them often.

Thank you, Bewilder.

I'm still gobsmacked at the blokes who steal tampons and reuse them. There was one who turned up a couple of years ago on some blog who'd steal used tampons, stick them up his bum, and then gallivant around town dressed up in pastel colored Lolita outfits (so think 5 year old girl in the Victorian era, but sexualized with thigh high stockings etc).

But sure, AGP doesn't exist, and women who're creeped out by that sort of thing are just bigoted meanies. Self-ID will in no way encourage that sort of person to expand the range of spaces in which they make a nuisance of themselves.

Women won't be safe in women's loo's, they won't even be safe disposing of used menstruation products in women's loo's. It's unreal women are going to have to face all of this to appease men!

I'm still gobsmacked at the blokes who steal tampons and reuse them.

The poor DH visibly paled when I showed him those screenshots.

Can I identify as feline? Will everyone then please redefine the word cat to sometimes mean a type of small furry carnivorous mammal and sometimes an adult human female? Oh, and I shall expect the RSPCA to fight for my right to be fed regularly* and allowed to bask in the sun all day.

*Not cat food though. That wouldn't be appropriate for my trans-cat biology.