Questions for TRAs or Transpeople on here

[Bloodmagic]

Genuine question and I hope some of you will answer.

From my perspective, Gender Critical people (you would call us TERFs) want to accept you exactly as you are. Your sex (which you cannot change) and you personality, your fashion, mannerisms etc etc are all perfectly fine to us. We accept you as you are. We accept Transwomen as feminine men because that is exactly what you are. We accept Transmen as masculine women because that is what you are. We don't think there's anything shameful or degrading about that. Quite the opposite, we think it's pretty great. I think that men who identify as transwomen as a group should have: safety, freedom, political representation, political speech, suitable facilities (bathrooms, changerooms), inclusion in sports (co-ed, on teams of your own sex, or trans teams), free expression, happiness, the right to be around people like you and share experiences with them, organize with them, etc.

I don't think that has to come at the expense of the same rights for women.

Why is that such a terrible thing, in your eyes?

They only thing we won't do is lie for you, or prioritize your needs over our own.

How does it hurt you that we accept you exactly as we see you?

On the other hand, a lot of the people who claim to be trans supportive will not accept you as you are. Lily Madigan would not have been appointed to labor as a feminine man. They would not have accepted him as he is. They hate feminine men so much they demand that you hate yourselves and deny your reality before they will even let you be used as pawns in the Game of Patriarchy. Your self loathing is the only part of you that they value. It's the only part that I don't.

How many of your trans allies and supporters would still stand by you if you came out as a man who aspires to be as feminine as possible and understands that makes him no less a man and no less worthy than anyone else? They might not, but we would.

I'm having trouble understanding how you can look at us and see hate? We are the ones saying that everything you are is fine and perfect. We can't make you something you're not, no one can. But we also think you don't need to be anything other than exactly as you really are. What's so bad about that?

Oh god, that's a mental image I could have done without. I'm drinking red wine you know, dark red wine.

Identify how you like but I'm not cleaning out an adult human sized litter box!

(Of course as we've been informed in this thread "adult" is meaningless, so who knows, could be more toddler sized.)

That's okay kittens, I'll just pee in other people's gardens.

They're so used to getting their own way as men, they'll never survive as women anyway.

Just pee in the women's loo's catkind everyone else will be.

Maybe in Canada they can take the door sign from Bristol someone posted earlier and add a picture of a bear, just to be fully inclusive.

I would like to ask those who consider TIM as being less of a man or more of a woman. Do you also consider gay men as being more like women or as lesser men, or lesbians as being more like men or as lesser women? Or camp gay men and butch lesbians in particular? What about gay men who sometimes perform in drag are they lesser men? In all those instances people are just not performing the stereotypical roles, in one way or another. I think seeing a feminine man or a masculine woman as being less of their biological sex and more like the opposite sex, is actually very sexist and homophobic, even if that is not the intention.

I’ll answer for myself. No, I don’t see feminine men or camp gay men as lesser men, or butch lesbians as lesser women. But I do see trans people as distinct in this way (neither woman nor man fully) because that is how they see themselves, and I’m listening (or trying to, when they’re being reasonable and not screaming “transphobia”) and responding to that. Identity is a difficult thing. You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

I think seeing a feminine man or a masculine woman as being less of their biological sex and more like the opposite sex, is actually very sexist and homophobic, even if that is not the intention.

But sexuality is not the thing at issue. It’s identity. I agree that sexist stereotypes benefit no one. But these people are saying they don’t feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. They feel something “other”, which for the most part, for whatever reason, manifests as wanting to be the opposite sex. Whether that’s innate or gender stereotypes or society or mental health is not the issue in terms of how it makes the individual feel to be “misgendered”. So as a social courtesy I consider them “women” or “men” whilst not really believing that to be true because I know you can’t deny biology and change sex. But I do think an individual trans person’s deeply held belief about themselves should be respected. Just not made law in all cases, because that’s mad.

Words matter. They matter legally (woman = member of biological class) but also socially (pronouns). For me personally, as long as the legal definition is upheld without any “biology is out-dated” bullshit, I’ll sign on to trans women are women (though in my head it’s more trans women are “women”).

I sincerely do not believe that is homophobic. Because it’s not sexuality at issue.

AngryAttackKittens Good idea, at least in Oz they would have cute Koalas.

If Wimbledon Common has public toilets they can put a drawing of a womble on theirs.

But these people are saying they don’t feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. They feel something “other”, which for the most part, for whatever reason, manifests as wanting to be the opposite sex.

Maybe some. Most claim they have always known they were a woman and were born in the wrong body. That is what the claim of being born in the wrong body means. That they are women and have always known they were women and so are entitled to be treated as women despite their male body.

AngryAttackKittens You mean Wombles aren't real? A bit like TIM's are real women then.

Yes bewilderness I agree with you - they’re 100% not saying they feel like “feminine men” or “masculine women”. I’m using “other” to mean they feel something else - they feel as if something is ‘wrong’ and have given it the signifier of ‘wrong body/wrong sex’. I believe they do know they are “other” i.e. NOT women if they were born male. But they cannot admit this for whatever reason - so they were “born women”. Which we all agree is bonkers.

But I still think because identity is complex their should be a degree to which we accept people’s assertions about themselves- just not to enshrine those in law.

I’m happy that we have religious freedom. I deplore oppression in the name of religion or violence against believers. I don’t think anyone can dictate a person’s beliefs.

But if a religion tried to enshrine in law their belief, trampling on the rights of others in the process, and shouting about their oppression and hate speech against anyone who objected to be redefined in relation to their religion, then I’d have a problem with that.

I believe they do know they are “other” i.e. NOT women if they were born male. But they cannot admit this for whatever reason - so they were “born women”. Which we all agree is bonkers.

You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

This is what sets up an internal conflict, aka cognitive dissonance.

The best analogy for what TRAs are trying to do may actually be the abortion "debate" in the US or in Ireland, where religious people have consistently tried to impose their beliefs on the rest of the population, and often succeeded in doing so. If you believe that abortion is wrong then don't have one, but you shouldn't be allowed to decide whether other people do. If you believe that you have a gender identity that's at odds with your body then you have the right to hold that belief, but not to force other people to believe it too or to adjust their boundaries around nudity etc to accomodate your belief.

I still can't get my head around the fact that they are unable to organise their own petitions/lobbying for their own spaces/sports. Preferring to intrude into ours, shout and abuse us, having no care even for girls.

This is what sets up an internal conflict, aka cognitive dissonance.

Absolutely. Which is why this is so difficult to discuss, and also why it is so damaging.

The religion/abortion debate is a very apt comparison, AAA.

Have been reading the stories on one of the Irish vote threads. Some of the priests are unbelievable, disgusting.

rosylea I guess trans people would say it’s not workable to lobby for that - take sports, where the trans participants in each individual sport would be so low (statistically) that you’d not get workable teams, competition etc. Also the same argument for why “trans” is linked with LBG.

But the Paralympics is extremely successful at having a diversity of sports and sportspeople with various disabilities in categories that work to mitigate inequalities etc. And it’s wildly popular too. So I think a trans lobby for sport might be possible on that basis.

But if trans people want to be the opposite “thing” to the “thing” they were born as then it won’t happen. First, you’d need to be “trans and proud”. Which you can’t identify with if you identify as a woman/man.

This is why the whole thing is mad ... because vocal trans people who campaign on the basis of being trans simultaneously say they are not “trans” but woman/man.

NoSquirrels, I understand what you're saying, I just want to see them working towards something positive. It's just crazy how it is at the moment.

There was a good letter in the Times or Guardian a week or so ago, the signatories were trans people standing against the TRAs and pointing out the harm it was doing to try to appropriate and dismiss sex-based exemptions not campaign for trans rights on their own behalves. It’s hard, though / lots of trans people don’t want to be campaigners. But a vocal minority are setting the agenda.

It must be difficult, frightening even, to stand up against the deplorable threatening behaviour of some of the tra's.

No kidding, since it's the weekend for Miranda Yardley.

Cheers

“I do see trans people as distinct in this way (neither woman nor man fully) because that is how they see themselves, and I’m listening (or trying to, when they’re being reasonable and not screaming “transphobia”) and responding to that. Identity is a difficult thing. You can’t dismiss an individual’s beliefs, and that cuts both ways.

I sincerely do not believe that is homophobic. Because it’s not sexuality at issue.“

I understand the reasoning behind that position, I disagree with it because things do not happen in a vacuum, do they. If men who are performing stereotypes are socially, referred to as women, even just because one wants to be polite. It has an effect on society as a whole, it enforces those stereotypes and makes them more rigid for everybody, this of course has a very negative impact on women and girls. It particularly has a negative impact on gays and lesbians (especially the young ones). This is because they often come to believe that if they like things typically associated with the opposite sex, it means they must actually be the opposite sex, and liking ones own sex is one of the biggest things associated with the opposite sex. For example, most people will immediately think men who perform femininity are gay, for exactly that reason; this is why many people are surprised when it is revealed many men actually have other motives, and are not gay at all. It is also why it is no coincidence that most children who are classified as trans actually grow up to be gays and lesbians if left alone. Therefore, going along with individuals delusions in order to be polite and respectful of their feelings/beliefs/identities can have unintended consequences, because society is made up of individuals, and how individuals act has an effect on society as a whole. So I believe that calling men women contributes to and enforces these sexist and homophobic stereotypes in society as a whole, and is particularly damaging for gay and lesbian young people.

Wow, you take a day off and come back to 250 responses!

Appreciate some of the side discussions here but if it’s not really related to the topic at hand, i.e. accepting transpeople as they are and legally protecting them on those grounds, can you please start a new thread? We’re drowning out the signal with noise.

@NatLuc

Thanks for your reply!

Male or Female I can accept, because as you stated - sex cannot be changed, but whilst GC proponents use male/female as synonymous with man/woman respectively, it acts as a language barrier when in open discourse with pro-trans people who do distinguish between them (I am saying pro-trans to be distinct from TRAs).

I think you must also accept that when GC people use the term women/men we are using it in the historical and currently commonly accepted definition of adult humans of the female/male sex.
You propose and prefer a different definition, which you absolutely can do, but you also have to understand that when GC people are talking about adult humans in this context male and man currently and historically mean the exact same thing.

Also, even if we were to change the definition of women/men so that transpeople could be referred to in their preferred category, we would still need words to describe the adult male ad adult female humans. For example, Borps and Plarps, respectively. We would still be saying that transwomen aren’t Plarps and shouldn’t be on the plarp-only shortlists or in the plarp changerooms. We would still say that transwomen are borps who are plarp-like in some ways.

I don’t see how that would help at all??

But to call me 'a feminine man', many find deeply insulting (not in this instance, just putting in to words the feeling it evokes) and at odds with some part of me that I cannot put in to words

Do you think that might be because our wider patriarchal society equates ‘feminine man’ and ‘failed man’? Or do you think it could be because in the English language the emphasis in ‘feminine man’ is placed on the ‘man’ rather than the ‘feminine’ which arguably has more impact on the way you exist in the world? I would agree in either case which is why transwoman is a very fine noun to use as long as we accept that transwomen are a subset of men not a subset of women.

My point in the post is that you understand that you’re an adult male, you know that the dictionary definition of man is simply adult male human, you know that GC women are not using it with an intent to limit your behavior or pass judgement, so why is it hurtful? I think there’s something under that to be discussed discovered.