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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can transwomen know they are a woman trapped in a man’s body?

95 replies

IwankaTramp · 23/05/2018 14:36

I don’t understand.

Could it just be they don’t feel they fit into how they perceive men in society are gendered and their logic is that they must therefore be female?

If you are born a man how can you possible know what it is to be woman? That is not your frame of reference.

Why do most transwomen present as hyper sexualised versions of women?

Why are many trans activists insisting on transwomen being called real women when they are trans women who have a need for their own particular protections and services unique to their experiences? Surely being trans is something to be celebrated in its own right?

Why are the perceived needs of so few suppressing the needs and rights of so many?

Why are women called transphobic when they have absolutely no issue with men identifying themselves as trans women and want them to be protected from discrimination as such?

What is wrong with asking that a process is in place that protects trans women and women from men who would exploit the self identification for nefarious purposes? Surely it benefits both?

Trying to unravel this and struggling.

OP posts:
TransplantsArePlants · 24/05/2018 06:51

As an aside

I have just got my first Smartphone, and I've realised why people plop in to stay stuff when they haven't read anything else anyone else has got to say. It's too damn boring to scroll through other people's words.

abbsisspartacus · 24/05/2018 06:55

Define How it feels to be a "man" or a "woman" personally I'm a woman I can't define myself I've been accused of being manly about certain things and in my marriage I was accused of trying to "wear the trousers" what ever the fuck that means so I'm sorry as a born female grown woman however you bloody put it these days I haven't a clue Confused >helpful

NancyBlackettsRedCap · 24/05/2018 06:58

A relative of mine is a transwoman, and (using he as a pronoun as it's in the past) apparently he mentioned to other children from a young age how much he hated his penis. Is this often true of other transwomen though?

I find myself very confused by the whole thing. It seems like a form of body dysmorphia, and those are usually treated as an illness. If I believed I were too fat at 5 stone, or that two was an impossibly high number of legs, then I don't think the medical profession or my friends would be agreeing with me and allowing me to harm myself.

Starkstaring · 24/05/2018 07:08

What I can't understand is why Gender Clinics are able to explore with their patients "internalised transphobia" but not "internalised homophobia".

MIdgebabe · 24/05/2018 08:41

Interesting , yes live and let live

A lack of assurance that you will be treated by a female body when seeking help after rape will reduce the chance that you seek help. That will lead to worse mental health outcomes for such women.

We have women's sport as a catagorisation partly to encourage women's participation to improve health and suppprt everyone living their lives to the fullest of their ability

If transwomen want live and let live, they need to do the let live bit themselves ( and I know many do ). The must not reduce the ability of women to live fully.

There are problems at present. I will only add my voice as support for solutions that benefit everyone. I will be wary and distrustful of anyone who does not accept a distinction between transwoman and woman.

NatLuc · 24/05/2018 10:24

@NancyBlackettsRedCap - I think the difference between dysphoria and dysmorphia is like this:

Dysmorphia is (as an example) looking in the mirror and seeing something that simply isn't true. I have a friend who while we were at school (and to this day) was/is obsessed with working out. Even at school he had biceps bigger than anyone else I knew. He was jacked even then, more so now, but he told me in confidence that when he looks in the mirror.. he sees himself as an absolute stick and he would get incredibly upset feeling that his muscles weren't big. Despite the fact they were. I feel your weight analogy fits this too. Seeing something that is not true does not make the distress any less real though.

Dysphoria is more seeing a real, tangible and unquestionable part of yourself (a penis, a vagina, breasts, body hair etc) and a part of you is inexplicably disgusted. It isn't about heels or dresses for transwomen or suits and short hair for transmen.. it is mainly the physical body that is the problem. So trans people use clothing and other tools (makeup, hair cuts etc) to disguise the physical aspects they are uncomfortable with.

Especially until surgery is a possibility if that is what the person wants.

I also think that trans people are often expected to be hyper feminine/masculine because anything less than perfection isn't good enough.

I actually had a lovely phone call with a friend last night who was expressing worry for me that I was trying to transition too quickly to please society (mainly referring to electrolysis) and was therefore not stopping to enjoy my new life. I think it really hit the nail on the head. She also said she was worried about the amount of exercise I was doing and that what I see when I look at myself in the mirror (a flawed individual that will never 100% pass) is not what others see, that even just in the last couple months she has noticed hormones have changed me a lot and she cannot even recognise me from before my transition.

I have been so focused on 'having the scaffolding up' trying to 'get the renovations finished' asap that I have forgotten to live my life.

Ultimately I think that bother dysphoria and dysmorphia have a complicated relationship but are distinct in their perception of the world. I also think that they are often both present in trans people though one is due to stereotypes imposed by society whilst the other is due to an internal incongruence that whilst not easily zeroed in on, is no less real,

NancyBlackettsRedCap · 24/05/2018 11:10

@NatLuc - thank you for that explanation, I understand a little better now I think.

Italiangreyhound · 24/05/2018 14:47

@NatLuc "I actually had a lovely phone call with a friend last night who was expressing worry for me that I was trying to transition too quickly to please society (mainly referring to electrolysis) and was therefore not stopping to enjoy my new life. I think it really hit the nail on the head."

Listen to your friends. They care and will want to help. May I ask roughly how old you are, without exposing yourself?

NatLuc · 24/05/2018 16:23

@Italiangreyhound - Of course, I am 29 later this year. I socially transitioned in December 2017 but began HRT in August 2017.

I have had a pretty wild ride since deciding to transition, I think a lot of the self image stuff with my weight and my urgency to clear my facial hair are to do with my girlfriend and I breaking up in January. The breakup was planned and she knew about my issues pretty much the whole way through our relationship (~3 years). But I think I felt that I needed to rush things while I was young to maximise my chances of finding love again?

But I am listening, don't worry. She doesn't think I am rushing things in the sense that I am 'going to make a mistake' - she just wants me to enjoy myself being who I am now. I have a great circle of friends. :) Going to take a break from electrolysis after this Saturday.

Truscum · 24/05/2018 16:29

Dysphoria is more seeing a real, tangible and unquestionable part of yourself (a penis, a vagina, breasts, body hair etc) and a part of you is inexplicably disgusted. It isn't about heels or dresses for transwomen or suits and short hair for transmen.. it is mainly the physical body that is the problem. So trans people use clothing and other tools (makeup, hair cuts etc) to disguise the physical aspects they are uncomfortable with

That has been my experience of gender dysphoria.

It didn’t manifest (as I’ve heard many TRA’s say) as a desire to shave my legs, or wear pink, go to the ladies toilet or whatever.

It manifested as an intense, stomach clamping hatred, directed at my genitals specifically in my case. I would feel sick (sometimes be sick) just knowing it was there. After puberty and more development it became worse. There were dark days where I would plan out how to ‘chop it off’.

I am still very glad that professionals put a pause on things to make sure I was absolutely sure of the realities and future ramifications.

As to why I ‘presented’ myself as a woman? I’m still doing a lot of soul searching on that one.

I always preferred female company, and had strong female role models growing up (well, after a time anyway) I think I just saw ‘woman’ as the default, as I wanted nothing to do with being ‘a man’.

I am still 100% certain that my SRS, though extreme, was the right thing for me to do. It helped me enormously.

I am currently unsure as to why that meant I had to ‘being’ a woman. I think stereotypes had a lot more to do with it than I imagined.

Jesus. Sorry for the self indulgent rambling. Still thinking through some stuff.

NatLuc · 24/05/2018 16:48

@Truscum - Thank you for sharing that.. you see it as self indulgent, but reading your comment gives me hope that in the future, SRS can help me. I have my first surgical consultation in September and I am scared for various reasons.

I am glad that it has helped you. And I completely agree that dysphoria did not manifest through the desire to shave legs etc.. I am very familiar with the pit of your stomach feeling. Puberty and beyond was absolutely when it kicked it up several gears as things started changing.

Thankfully, in my case, beginning HRT (9 months in now) has helped immeasurably, not completely.. but a heck of a lot. Not only because of physical changes, more I feel a peace that I had not known before?

I guess everyone is different though. But again, thank you for your reply.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 24/05/2018 19:17

I don’t understand.
Nor do most people — including quite a few (maybe most?) trans women. But dare I say that just as you all know more about pregnancy, periods and breast feeding than we ever will, we know more about being trans than most of you do? (I say "most" because there are quite a few women who are real experts in this field, including one of the psychs who assessed me, one of the country's leading GRS surgeons (soon to become a mum again), and at least one absolutely brilliant specialist nurse.)

Could it just be they don’t feel they fit into how they perceive men in society are gendered and their logic is that they must therefore be female?
No

If you are born a man how can you possible know what it is to be woman? That is not your frame of reference.
I am sure most girls "know" that they are girls long before they know exactly what is involved in being a woman. But because their gender identity matches their genitals, it never becomes an issue.

For transgirls it is more complicated. I was aware that "something was wrong" while I was at primary school, but I didn't have the words to express it, even to myself — far less discuss it with anyone else. And I somehow felt that it was a shameful secret that had to be kept hidden. So by the time I left school, I was well into "suppression mode". I didn't want to be trans: I tried hard not to be. I failed — but not for want of trying.

Incidentally, there is a large and growing body of research that suggest that "gender identity" (as opposed to "gender role" is innate, caused either by changing hormone levels in the mother's womb, or by an issue with the way the body translates the hormonal messages into cell structures and behaviour. There is also some suspicion that a fertility drug (no longer used) might have had some effect

Why do most transwomen present as hyper sexualised versions of women?
They don't. That is a myth, based (I think) on confusion between transvestites/crossdressers and transsexuals.

Why are many trans activists insisting on transwomen being called real women when they are trans women who have a need for their own particular protections and services unique to their experiences? Surely being trans is something to be celebrated in its own right?
Hardly a cause for celebration! Being trans and trying to suppress it messed up my life for half a century before I gave up and asked for expert help. The transition process was physically and emotionally painful, but it was worth it: I am happier now, my kids like me much better, and all of a sudden I have friends!

But I am stuck with the lasting regret that most of my life was wasted.

I don't want anyone to "pretend" that I am what you call a "real" woman. I know damn well that I have never experienced growing up as a girl, and could never have given birth. But it is extremely uncomfortable to have people screaming "fake" or accusing of being a fraud for something that is no more my fault than the colour of my eyes.

And, as a matter of practicality, there is so much anti-trans hatred that being identified as trans makes life much more dangerous. It is much safer just to blend in (as much as possible)

Jenni Murray had stomach surgery in order to lose weight. What would you think if someone said to her "you may look thin, but of course it's only because you had surgery. You're still a fat person really"? I would call it bloody rude. I feel the same about people who say that about transwomen: it's boorish, unnecessary, and it's only true if you believe entirely in biological determinism.

Why are the perceived needs of so few suppressing the needs and rights of so many?
I presume you are implying that the needs of trans-women are suppressing the needs of cis-women? If so, the answers that they aren't. For reasons that I can only guess at, a tiny minority of anti-trans activists have joined forces with the alt-right and religious fundamentalists to pushing that line, but it is completely groundless.

Why are women called transphobic when they have absolutely no issue with men identifying themselves as trans women and want them to be protected from discrimination as such?
They aren't. (Although I would take issue with your use of the word "men" to refer to trans women. I was never a "man", though I eventually managed give a pretty good impression of one, but at enormous personal expense in terms of emotion, relationships, and quality of life. And when I couldn't do it any longer, the financial cost was pretty steep, too: it crashed my business, and cost a five figure sum for the bits of treatment that aren't funded by the NHS.

What is wrong with asking that a process is in place that protects trans women and women from men who would exploit the self identification for nefarious purposes? Surely it benefits both?
Nothing. Many of us would like to see that, too. Maybe something along the lines of the safeguard that inbuilt into changing the gender on a passport? Or a minimum time — maybe ten years — between self ID'd changes. Although I really don't think the knicker fetishists and weekend hobby crossdressers are going jump at the opportunity of being "outed" to every official body from their GP to the taxman — and through them to their family, their employer, and probably their neighbours.

The problems that need solving are how to cut through the red tape of the existing process, so that GRC is achievable by those who had their GRS a long time ago (whose surgeons are no longer in practice or may be dead) or whoa their surgery abroad. And what we do about those who can't have surgery for some reason? Or whose gender incongruence is adequately treated with HRT or social transition.

I haven't the foggiest idea how you deal with bi-gender or a-gender people!

Trying to unravel this and struggling.
It's not easy. That's why it is so counterproductive to have anti-trans activists spreading malicious propaganda demanding that our (few) existing rights and protections should be removed, and setting up campaigns intended disrupt government research into the issues.

The public toilet issue is a simple and significant case in point. The fact is that in the UK, there is no law that prohibits anyone from going into a public loo designated for the opposite sex. Trans women have ben using ladies loos and dressing rooms for decades — probably centuries. It has never been a problem.

But if someone early in their transition were to be banned from the ladies loos, and forced to use the gents, they would immediately be at vastly greater risk of abuse and/or serious physical harm. No less significant, in my opinion, is that they could not conform to the requirements of the so-called "real life test" which requires then to live "as a woman" for at least a year (mine was two years) before they can be referred for GRS. Please don't ask what "as a woman" means: I have no idea. It's what it said on the letter from my gender clinic to my GP when they told her their diagnosis.

And what is the "risk" to other women? Every public loo and dressing room I have been in has had individual cubicles! All anyone other users he seen of me is washing my hands and brushing my hair! I have never had a problem — even in crowded theatres where I've ended up having quite long chats with other women in the queue! And — pre-op — there was no way on earth that I would dream of using a communal changing room — for everyone's sake.

I'm sure the government will welcome input into its consultation from everyone. What it won't welcome — and will probably ignore — will be abusive rants based on ill-informed prejudice, or any more deliberate efforts to distort its attempts to gather information.

Damnthatonestakentryanother2 · 24/05/2018 19:43

MIdgebabe
A lack of assurance that you will be treated by a female body when seeking help after rape will reduce the chance that you seek help. That will lead to worse mental health outcomes for such women.
The people who actually run crisis centres don't seem to agree with that, but surely it is up to them to apply their own expertise to their choice of staff?

We have women's sport as a catagorisation partly to encourage women's participation to improve health and suppprt everyone living their lives to the fullest of their ability Again, isn't the solution to that in the hands of the governing bodies? They can make rules about chromosomes or hormone levels, or set height or weight limits (as they already do) . Bear in mind that after a few years of HRT, a transwoman is stuck with a male skeleton, but has a female metabolism and muscle mass: so in some sports, they might actually be at a disadvantage!

If transwomen want live and let live, they need to do the let live bit themselves ( and I know many do ). The must not reduce the ability of women to live fully. I don't think any of us want to "reduce the ability of women to live fully".

I will be wary and distrustful of anyone who does not accept a distinction between transwoman and woman. That's a pretty big stumbling block. As I see it, trans-women and cis-women are both categories of women. We are different, but we have a lot in common. We could all gain a lot by co-operating. As I see it, dividing us into "women" and "not women" is divisive and counter-productive, and he the idea that women are defined only by their biological function as egg-producers seems to me to be demeaning to both.

And please ... "cis-" tis not intended as an insult! We (trans-) wish we were cis-, so if anything, it's flattery!

thebewilderness · 24/05/2018 19:53

But if someone early in their transition were to be banned from the ladies loos, and forced to use the gents, they would immediately be at vastly greater risk of abuse and/or serious physical harm.

There is no evidence to support this assertion.

How can transwomen know they are a woman trapped in a man’s body?
They don't. All they know is they are uncomfortable with or reject the body they have. It is pop culture and medical malpractice, as well as religious and philosophical teachings, that created and promoted the belief that women are failed men. Further, that men become women by surgically removing their genitalia, all evidence to the contrary.

thebewilderness · 24/05/2018 19:56

Transgender identified males are a sub category of males. The evidence is clear.
Your beliefs are your business but your persistent refusal to take no for an answer with regard to the pejoratives you use against women on the forum every day makes it clear precisely who you are.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 24/05/2018 20:47

The people who actually run crisis centres don't seem to agree with that, but surely it is up to them to apply their own expertise to their choice of staff?

So why do the NHS still insist of their own backs that I get female health care providers despite being raped 20 years ago. Oh wait because they understand that some elements of biology are traumatic to me even still.

We are different, but we have a lot in common

Out of curiosity what do you think we have in common?

Voice0fReason · 24/05/2018 21:37

if someone early in their transition were to be banned from the ladies loos, and forced to use the gents, they would immediately be at vastly greater risk of abuse and/or serious physical harm.
So trans women are at risk of harm if they use the men's facilities but women should have no concerns if trans women, who have undergone no hormone treatment and are biologically male, use the female facilities?

And please ... "cis-" tis not intended as an insult! We (trans-) wish we were cis-, so if anything, it's flattery!
That's a bit like being told that being wolf-whistled at should be taken as a compliment.

thebewilderness · 24/05/2018 21:46

The risk for someone early in transition would be the loss of their ability to suspend their disbelief.
They would have to face the fact that contrary to what the enablers and recruiters had been telling them they are quite obviously male and would distress and frighten the women if they were allowed to use the women's loo. If they are less than six foot tall a woman might even go so far as to inform them they are in the wrong loo.

spontaneousgiventime · 24/05/2018 22:02

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TransplantsArePlants · 24/05/2018 22:04

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LaSqrrl · 24/05/2018 22:05

I totally concur with Datun

She has said that she has yet to see a girl transition who wasn't either autistic, a lesbian, or have suffered from some kind of sexual trauma. It would appear that many of our young women are trying to escape what it means to be a woman today. [...] For men, the theory is there are two types. Homosexual transsexuals who are gender nonconforming (effeminate) and reject masculinity, and their male anatomy. And autogynephiles, who are aroused by the thought of themselves as a woman - generally attracted to women and often transitioning later in life than the former cohort.

Yes to all that, and the explanations which I omitted above.

Bobbly
My sister is transgender.

I think you will find your sibling is actually transsexual, not transgender. If you re-read Datun's breakdown, you will see some of the reasons why. The split for males is based upon sexual orientation for the most part.

OldCrone · 24/05/2018 22:09

The problems that need solving are how to cut through the red tape of the existing process, so that GRC is achievable by those who had their GRS a long time ago (whose surgeons are no longer in practice or may be dead) or whoa their surgery abroad. And what we do about those who can't have surgery for some reason? Or whose gender incongruence is adequately treated with HRT or social transition.

This is irrelevant. No surgery is required for a GRC.

FloraFox · 24/05/2018 22:19

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starzig · 24/05/2018 22:21

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abbsisspartacus · 24/05/2018 22:45

I don't believe a majority of people transitioning are bad people I do believe they need support I also believe a minority are using them to push there own agenda I think moving forward everyone needs there own space and not to encroach on others so if you swing you can't come in genuine women don't have a penis men do if your a crossdresser own it if your trans own it etc etc