Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How can transwomen know they are a woman trapped in a man’s body?

95 replies

IwankaTramp · 23/05/2018 14:36

I don’t understand.

Could it just be they don’t feel they fit into how they perceive men in society are gendered and their logic is that they must therefore be female?

If you are born a man how can you possible know what it is to be woman? That is not your frame of reference.

Why do most transwomen present as hyper sexualised versions of women?

Why are many trans activists insisting on transwomen being called real women when they are trans women who have a need for their own particular protections and services unique to their experiences? Surely being trans is something to be celebrated in its own right?

Why are the perceived needs of so few suppressing the needs and rights of so many?

Why are women called transphobic when they have absolutely no issue with men identifying themselves as trans women and want them to be protected from discrimination as such?

What is wrong with asking that a process is in place that protects trans women and women from men who would exploit the self identification for nefarious purposes? Surely it benefits both?

Trying to unravel this and struggling.

OP posts:
HarryLovesDraco · 23/05/2018 18:29

none of us can say we know what it's like to be like anyone else

Well exactly. The only things I have in common with all women are measurable and observable and related to having a female body. Men can't know what that feels like.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 23/05/2018 18:29

Nobody knows what it's like to be anyone else, unarguable. But the only thing that unites all 3.5 billion women on the planet is having a female body. 'Feeling like a woman' means what? It can't mean 'I feel as if I have a female body' because they haven't got one. In any other case we'd say that was a delusion that needed psychiatric treatment. It can only mean 'I can't conform to male stereotypes so I'm going to have a go at conforming to female stereotypes'.

hackmum · 23/05/2018 18:32

I think if someone says, "I feel like a woman trapped in a man's body", then you have to accept that that's how they feel. I'm an atheist but I have friends who say they can feel God's presence in their lives and that for that reason they are absolutely convinced of God's existence. I accept that they feel like that even though I am sure they are wrong.

Terfulike · 23/05/2018 18:44

Yes Hack I would not suggest they're lying only that they are mistaken

HotRocker · 23/05/2018 18:58

So how do we get from I feel like a woman trapped in a man’s body to I demand complete acceptance and compliance from everybody?
I will state at this point that I am not talking about all transwomen.
I’m sure that anybody who identify as female should be sensitive and aware enough to accept that there are certain situations where their gender identity comes second place to the safety and dignity of women, indeed there are plenty of transwomen who do, but all this I want I want me ne me, and this incell style I demand sex from lesbians bullshit, how do we get from I feel like I’m in the wrong body to this?
How the hell is this shit getting any traction?
How is this being viewed as in any way helpful to transpeople?

HarryLovesDraco · 23/05/2018 19:43

Yes hack. They may truly believe they feel female. But rationally, they cannot feel female, they must be mistaken.

OrchidInTheSun · 23/05/2018 19:52

Feeling female is not about hair and make up and clothes and girlishness and sissy stuff. That is men's idea of what female is like. It's wholly wrong

scotsheather · 23/05/2018 19:58

Feeling female is not about hair and make up and clothes and girlishness and sissy stuff

Sadly it is to some people or so it seems. At least it was more acceptable for girls and young women to cross perceived gender boundaries when I was a kid.

thenewaveragebear1983 · 23/05/2018 20:12

@Datun datun thanks for your reply, it’s very interesting. I will look at that thread.

I didn’t say what I did to sound vulnerable; I think it’s probably quite common for people reading threads on here to feel overwhelmed by the extent of others’ understanding and experience of it. It’s hard when a thread is rumbling in at 400+ posts to comment with a layman’s view, an unsophisticated opinion, and I suppose that’s what I was trying to articulate. I feel like the debate, and particularly the feminist debate about trans women and all that involves, has become very sophisticated and very well developed, and there’s no way of learning the basics. But I will definitely read that thread, I really want to develop my understanding of it.

Writersblock2 · 23/05/2018 20:24

It's an interesting question to explore, and whichever way I look at it, it always comes back to psychology.

I try and frame it using my own experiences. When I was a teenager I was deeply depressed, and I very much wanted to be male. I remember reading one of Poppy Z Brite's (dark author) articles about why she felt she was a man. I'd not really come across anything like it before, and for a while it stuck in my head. I pondered on it myself: could I stop being a woman and start being a man? What would change? I looked into transsexualism, I read about operations, I listened to interviews.

The conclusion I came to was that I couldn't be a man, because I was not born male. I could take all the hormones in the world, I could fashion a penis from the skin of my thigh, I could grow a beard, and I may even eventually "pass" as male to strangers in the street. However, I would always know the truth, and that truth is that I was born female, and no matter how much at the time I wanted to be male, all I would be doing is lying to myself. I've never been all that great at that.

Fast forward, through much more introspection and some counselling (for unrelated issues) and it became clear to me that I never once "felt" like I was male, because I have absolutely no idea what that is. Because I was born female. What I wanted was to get out of what I perceived to be the female prison I had been born into. I had been sexually assaulted by men, I had received multiple threats of violence from men. I had grown up in a household with a very old-fashioned, very misogynistic father and brother who expected me to be a stereotypical girl, both in appearance and demeanour when I was anything but. I refused to wear skirts or dresses before I hit five, much to my parents' distress. I was outspoken, I was opinionated, I was clever. I wanted to be more than my given lot as a girl.

It took until my 20s to feel comfortable being female. Not because I thought I was male, but because females get such a shit time of it in society and that was echoed and illuminated in my own upbringing and my own social sphere. I even imposed it on myself, or rejected any trappings of femininity because it felt weak. There have been many times since when something has happened, either politically or socially and I've thought "bloody hell, if only I was male then this wouldn't be happening to me" but now, instead of wishing I was someone else, I fight for change.

So from my experiences above, I can see why so many people think they are the opposite sex. It's easy to take a leap and believe in something without evidence (look at religion) when you are dissatisfied with what you have. It's easier to believe you are wrong (we are raised to always blame ourselves) than it is to think that the world around us needs to change. I can see why more and more girls are transitioning too - what girl wants to be used and abused in this porn-sick society they've been brought into?

I've written loads so I'll draw this to a close, but I also see heavy parallels with the fan fiction crowd (stay with me) - women readers and writers who exclusively read and write about gay male relationships. With male/male partners they get to redefine roles and explore stereotypes. It's not Mills & Boon they are reading because they don't want to be the fawning, flouncing female on the cover, and it's not heterosexual erotica because they don't want the female role handed down from porn. It's male/male relationships and love, because they get to explore a shift in power dynamic they would never get to experience in their own lives; they get to "identify" with the symbol of ultimate power we are given in society: the penis.

I don't blame people who experience gender dysphoria for this, I blame society. And until we abolish the notion of gender and do away with these bullshit stereotypes, this will continue. It's getting worse, in our social media age. We need to examine why.

IwankaTramp · 23/05/2018 20:31

Thank-you everyone for your interesting thoughts.

OP posts:
HotRocker · 23/05/2018 20:33

Excellent post

Voice0fReason · 23/05/2018 23:09

@Datun's post explains it perfectly.

Feeling like you don't fit what you think a man or woman should be, is being mistaken for the belief that you must be the opposite gender.

Having watched a lot of videos from people who have detransitioned, it really worries me the damage that some people are doing to their body when they don't know that the process is right for them.
Much of the trans community would insist that detransitioners don't exist.

Italiangreyhound · 23/05/2018 23:15

@HotRocker "Greyhound, a significant proportion of the lesbian community are butch looking women. Instead of being rejected, a lot of women actually find it attractive."

That was my point, the women in the lesbian community (again I know there is not one community) have no reason to transition for want to acceptance, as far as I can see. Yet many, many young women and girls are suggesting they are 'boys'.

pombear · 23/05/2018 23:20

Language is everything. 'Trapped in a' denotes panic, urgency, stifling, oppressed.

Denotes 'need to do something'. Kicks an urgency in all of us who are empathetic to 'save'.

If you restructured that language to simply say what it is: 'feels uncomfortable with the body parts they were born with'.

It de-urgencies the problem. Helps us construct the problem in 'hmm, how are we going to help you get through this, that sounds shit to feel like that'.

But currently, as other language has been appropriated from LGB which has NEVER used ' trapped in the wrong../need medication or surgery, or validation that tramples on other people's rights to be 'us'.' to T, and now everyone's too scared to go there in case of 'phobia'.

pombear · 23/05/2018 23:23

Addendum to last post: not 'everyone'. There are some very brave women and men out there challenging this. I've just started a new job, am a single mum reliant on this wage, so too chicken to be 'out there' like some of the fantastic gender critical women and men I'm reading.

And what a world we're living in where people like me are too worried to put our heads up over the parapet right now.

Italiangreyhound · 23/05/2018 23:39

@Lichtie "How can transwomen know they are a woman trapped in a man’s body?...
How can you know they are not. We are all unique, none of us can say we know what it's like to be like anyone else."

Of course we are all unique. But even if a person does genuinely feel their body is wrong, we have to work on facts in society, not feelings.

Of course I want everyone to feel happy all the time but the reality is that society is based around rules and laws and these are not based on how we feel.

I might feel like a 5 year old but I can't go and join my child's year 1 class as a student. I might feel like an OAP (and actually I bloody do half the time) but I can't go and get my pension yet.

I love that line from Working Girl.

"Sometimes I sing and dance around the house in my underwear. It doesn't make me Madonna."

tenor.com/view/workinggirl-madonna-80shair-gif-5544350

So basically, much as I want everyone to be happy I also think we have rules based around actual facts, not feelings. There is a route for trans women to be legally recognized as women, it doesn't make them female but it helps them with gender dysphoria, apparently.

I really don't have a problem with people believing about themselves whatever they like but we do make rules around society based on facts not on how people feel.

thebewilderness · 24/05/2018 00:00

The basis for the claim seems to be the thousands of years of men in positions of power and influence insisting that women are failed men, and failed men are women.

GardenGeek · 24/05/2018 00:24

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 24/05/2018 02:02

Undue influence exists and causes people to behave and think at other's whims - it also causes mind and body distress

the stats are distressing where the majority of the actual people transitioning are young women who have profoundly injured by male violence in different guises - most of women's ills are caused by disordered men and trans would seem to be no exception.

HarryLovesDraco · 24/05/2018 06:29

the women in the lesbian community (again I know there is not one community) have no reason to transition for want to acceptance

That's not really true. The lesbian community isn't a gender role free paradise. Young lesbians don't call themselves 'lesbian' because it's not inclusive enough. Butch women are and have always been problematic to society as a whole - being accepted by your community is one thing but if the rest of the world treats you as an anomaly how does that feel?
Butch lesbians aren't immune to internalised misogyny or lesbophobia. There is a surprising amount of toxic masculinity in butch lesbian culture. It's not straightforward.

interestingdays · 24/05/2018 06:38

I've no idea why any of you seem to care, read Trans Forums and spend so much time pontificating on any of this. Just live and let live. Until you've walked a mile in anyone's shoes, hoe can you begin to imagine how they truly feel and what motivates them - be those ladies' stilettos or men's loafers.

Everyone's Talking About Jamie is a BRILLIANT musical, by the way!

TransplantsArePlants · 24/05/2018 06:44

interesting

I have no idea how you can ask why people care, assuming you've read anything on this or any other thread on the forum.

Thanks for the musical tip though