I believe The Spectator is in danger of folding.

[Battleax]

Perhaps we could show some support for them and their commitment to free and balanced journalism?

They have an excellent 12 issues for £12 offer at the moment.

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/transgender-activists-and-the-real-war-on-women/

Especially left-wing people. They see gender critical feminists promoting Jordan Peterson or Jacob Rees Mogg or whoever and they don’t want to know. Many of those people could be allies. It frustrates me to see the debate and think about how it must look through the eyes of someone who knows nothing about it.

For me it goes way beyond self ID - self ID, general misogyny on the left, rampant anti-Semitism - but way beyond any of those individually, the repression of dissent and the knee jerk response of expel dissidents rather than debate issues. There is an authoritarian streak a mile wide in the Momentum faction of the LP which scares the shit out of me.

On the other hand, the Tories are genuinely letting people starve.

Modern politics is a festering shit-pit on both ends of the spectrum.

Well it frustrates me to watch Momentum/Labour turn into some sort of Salem witch trial against gc women.

I've been watching them throwing gc women out of the party - instigated by a teenaged (at the time) trans CLP women's officer plus mates. I've been watching them write songs (Momentum/antifa beardy guys) about kicking women's teeth out. I've seen them shutting down free speech and free assembly. I've watched them put self ID into practice.

This turns me against ever voting Labour.

I really, really don't want these people in charge.

Yes, Labour is a mess. But surely being critical of labour doesn’t have to mean promoting organisations or individuals or parties or whatever known for their anti-feminist ways, just because of self-ID?

Are the tories even collectively opposed to self-ID? Aren’t they basically the ones who’ve brought all this up? I suspect it will go through eventually, whoever is in charge.

the knee jerk response of expel dissidents rather than debate issues. There is an authoritarian streak a mile wide in the Momentum faction of the LP which scares the shit out of me

Democratic centralism, which is pretty much the way Labour seem to be going, is not associated with good outcomes for women. Just look at the SWP.

The first centre or left-of-centre party to break against self-ID will get my vote. If none do, then I intend to spoil my ballot paper. And I won't be guilted out of that.

doesn’t have to mean promoting organisations or individuals or parties or whatever known for their anti-feminist ways, just because of self-ID?

Well, perhaps people think these people have something worth listening to?

The authoritarian left is as dangerous as the authoritarian right (and by that, I mean Nazis, not the Tory party) - Momentum and Labour are frighteningly close to the authoritarian left - shutting down debate and free speech, suppressing freedom of thought and critical thinking, and policing our use of language. This is dangerous.

I have the Spectator, the New Statesman and The Economist delivered.

Has Sloth's head exploded at the notion that people can chose to expose themselves to a range of views and opinions??

The Spectator is really good.

Some excellent writers. Some are really funny. Deborah Moss' films reviews are brilliant and hilarious, Jeremy Clarks' Low Life column is some of the most beautiful and touching writing I've ever read.

There are some real 'I'm right wing and I don't care' types as well, and some old lefties. The mix and quality of writing is what makes it such a good read. I really look forward to getting it every week.
Oh and the cartoons are good.
And Mary off Gogglebox is the agony aunt for other posh people she's very funny.
The book reviews are the best I've found.
Julie Burchill writes for them!

And yes I'm a feminist.

Oh and I find Jordan Peterson interesting.

Spoil away, LangCleg - no guilt from me. The point I’m trying to make (not very well I know) is specifically about people supporting right-wing organisations in the name of feminism, nothing to do with spoilt ballot papers. I do agree there is a terrible misogyny among left-wing men, apparently worse the further left you go. It is depressing that there’s no positive option, really, just less bad ones.

Honestly. It's so so limiting to only ever agree with people is you agree on everything. You have to listen to a variety of viewpoints, on all subjects - not just dismiss this person, because they're not left wing, or that person, because they're not feminist.

This is what's wrong with everything - tribalism. I'm so done with it.

To return to the OP, I do hope the Speccie doesn't fold.

Though some of their contributors are undoubtedly fuddy-duddies (Charles Moore's columns have given me a deeper appreciation of Craig Brown's pastiches of his style in the Eye), they do seem to be the publication that's currently doing the best job of offering a range of views.

For example, last year there was an open letter from the writer to his Corbynista nephew. Some good points were made, but he was beginning to overreach towards the end. Next issue featured the reply of the Corbynista nephew! Slightly mischievous, but a balance that you're unlikely to see in the Mail or the Graun.

Regarding the current ding-dong, it strikes me that the GC debate is like the Brexit one in that, whichever side you take, you find yourself deeply frustrated with some politicians on 'your' side that you previously respected whilst simultaneously finding that politicians belonging to parties hitherto beyond your political pale are making decent points.

To chuck up all this brave new world of new thinking regarding difficult issues in favour of blind political tribalism is, in my opinion, a mistake.

I'm very much of the centre - can see good and bad policies in each of the two major parties, read the Spectator and the New Statesman. I like my prejudices challenged.

But the one thing that really turns me off the left is its fucking self-righteousness + now, of course, it's total disdain for the rights and safety of women.

Honestly. It's so so limiting to only ever agree with people is you agree on everything. You have to listen to a variety of viewpoints, on all subjects - not just dismiss this person, because they're not left wing, or that person, because they're not feminist.

Absolutely.

Babyitsawildworld I also read different sources. Not the spectator generally but I certainly read the Times and the Telegraph from time to time (insofar as paywalls allow), as well as the guardian and many others, although I increasingly disagree with the guardian’s editorial line as well. I think my point is being a bit lost, probably because I’m not conveying it very well. It’s less about whether the Spectator specifically is too right wing to countenance supporting (for me it is, but obviously this varies depending on your politics) and more about a general trend of GC feminists bigging up right-wing things/people because of the single issue of self-ID. When history (and the present to be honest) shows right wing policies are very bad for women.

And I don’t feel rage towards you at all. But like i said, i do feel frustration when I see someone post excitedly about for example a Rod Liddle article on trans issues, because I can imagine how this would put me off engaging further if I was new to the debate.

As far as Jordan Peterson in particular is concerned, I personally do not understand how you could find him “interesting” when most of his views are the same re-hashed, sexist evolutionary psychology nonsense we’ve been suffering from thinly veiled MRAs for decades. But everyone has different tastes.

Honestly. It's so so limiting to only ever agree with people is you agree on everything. You have to listen to a variety of viewpoints, on all subjects - not just dismiss this person, because they're not left wing, or that person, because they're not feminist.

Increasingly there are so many major issues with no clear right/left position. Not only self id but also brexit. So yes, tribalism is of limited use, and always has been. But being able to support a party that is gutting services for vulnerable women, simply because they may (jury still out on this) agree with you on one point of feminist doctrine, is a very privileged position to be in.

Minimising it to call it one point of feminism doctrine.

As I've already said, IMO it is the biggest threats to women's rights and women's equality in a hundred years.

I will vote for the least worst party - the party that I consider least likely to bring it in. If they all do - I'll spoil my vote.

I cannot, in all conscience, vote for Labour - a party that expels women for their gc opinions, and has made self ID policy already.

"I wish you would all stop promoting right-wing nonsense"

Heaven forbid people occasionally checked out what the other "side" is saying, familiarised themselves with their opinions, arguments and beliefs....

The bottom line is, no woman should ever have to justify their views or opinions. They are ours and we own no-one an explanation.

As I've already said, IMO it is the biggest threats to women's rights and women's equality in a hundred years.

I think we’ll never agree, because to me self-ID is regressive and honestly absurd, but other issues are far more urgent. I’m sure we are on the same page on many other issues though.

I agree, we can agree to differ, Sloth.

The bottom line is, no woman should ever have to justify their views or opinions

This really isn’t how things work. Everyone, woman or not, is entitled to their own opinion, and equally everyone else is entitled to offer their own opinion on that opinion if they wish. No one is forcing you to justify anything.

As far as I'm concerned it's not the support for self ID alone. If the left had reached that conclusion after a proper debate in which all voices were allowed a say then maybe, just maybe I would have been able to accept it - or at least I might have stayed and argued.

It's the refusal to even discuss it and the utter contempt they have shown - and still are showing - for women that has been so very, very revealing.

I don't know if there's any way back for me. 'The feeling's gone and I just can't get it back.'

SlothSlothSloth My comment wasn't to you. You can offer a gazillion opinions on my opinion, my opinion is to ignore you and do what I feel is right.

It's the refusal to even discuss it and the utter contempt they have shown - and still are showing - for women that has been so very, very revealing.

I don't know if there's any way back for me. 'The feeling's gone and I just can't get it back.'

Exactly how I feel.