LM trying to get a labour worker (not politician) fired

[Notthatwomanagain]

Are you allowed to hold your own views if you work for a party but aren’t a politician?
She could get fired if this is pursued Im guessing?

@Charlieparley : A slap in the face to any woman who has ever been opressed because of her sex

@supermatchgame: I don't really see how LM getting treatment for a diagnosed condition is a slap in the face or erases decades of progress by feminists. Again it's very all or nothing thinking. Also magnification - catastrophising.

Your entire reply to CP was gaslighting. Insinuating that CP is mentally ill ("cognitive distortion" etc) for recognising biological reality and spelling out the consequences of ignoring that reality.

LM having GD or AGP is irrelevant to the harm done by LM when LM insists that LM is female and makes political claims on that basis. LM's treatment should involve counselling to help LM recognise biological reality, even if LM then requires hormonal or surgical intervention to ease dysphoria. Rose Of Dawn and Miranda Yardley are two transsexuals who recognise that they are biologically male even though neither want to be. If LM took the view that LM is male but is distressed by that maleness, LM would not talk about being able to get pregnant on the basis of a hypothetical uterus implant that LM's pelvis is not evolved to cope with and would stop telling muslim women that they must accept biological males into female spaces or not use those spaces.

To reiterate: it's not LM's diagnosis that is the problem, the problem is LM's failure to accept biological reality and consequent political claims.

Does your enthusiasm for forced speech extend to making a rape victim describe her attacker as "she" in court proceedings, Supermatch ?

What other forms of coerced speech are you in favour of? A return of blasphemy laws because some people sincerely believe in God and feel offended when people attack religion?

No one believes it, and yet they want us all to say we do.

Indeed. It's not about gender identities at all. It's about forcing compliance on women. As we keep saying, if it was actually about all of us respecting gender identities they'd be as busy on places like PistonHeads as they are here. And they aren't. QED.

ArcheryAnnie
It's really disingenuous of you to say it's not forcing, because what else can you describe a situation when someone who has the ear of the Labour leadership is trying very publicly to get a party worker sacked because they don't subscribe to a highly contested ideology?

It's not really that contested and it isn't an ideology. Gender identity exists and is recognised by the World Health Organisation
origin.who.int/gender-equity-rights/news/20170227-health-and-sexual-diversity-faq.pdf

apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/207686/9789290615927_eng.pdf;jsessionid=5978412A38FA3E3526BF67C1D1326664?sequence=1

www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(16)30165-1/abstract

The law says you have to wear a seat belt or not racially abuse someone or not misgender them - most people do not describe that as being forced.

Bowl you can have a gender identity that conflicts with the sex of the body. You can change sex hormonally, legally and some aspects of anatomy & biology yes. But not chromosomally.

Lang - gender identity is legitimately recognised by most of The Wold now. I've done a bit more reading since we last spoke - World Health Organisation references above. I hope you're going to credit my persistence as well?

The law says you have to wear a seat belt or not racially abuse someone or not misgender them

What's the law re misgendering Super?

It's not really that contested and it isn't an ideology.

It is contested and it is absolutely an ideology.

So you agree that transwomen remain men?

Because if humans can’t change sex then transwomen are men.

Just so I’m clear? Transwomen are actually Male?

Cisgendering is fucking misgendering.

Your entire reply to CP was gaslighting. Insinuating that CP is mentally ill ("cognitive distortion" etc)

You misunderstand me. And apologies to Charlie if that came across as implying that - I certainly didn't mean to. By pointing out cognitive distortions I was trying to highlight some (what I perceived) as errors in thinking. Not mental illness. Many people can be prone to that sort of thinking now and again and it's a useful tool - or at least I think so, as do others. I've done it a lot myself and I still catch myself doing it at times.

You can change sex hormonally,

You can take artificial hormones as a man. If you stopped taking them there would be physical effects. It doesn't change your sex.

legally

No. This is a legal fiction and the law recognises you are not the same as women in every way as there are exemptions possible to both the GRA and EA. You haven't actually changed sex.

and some aspects of anatomy & biology yes

Males can have breast tissue either through hormone treatment or due to medical conditions. It doesn't mean you have changed sex.

It's possible to remove testicles and/or create a simulacrum of a vagina out of the penis which however is not connected to a female system. It doesn't mean you have changed sex.

Still male. Forever.

That was for any lurkers, I know you'll keep spamming the same old nonsense SMG.

Assigned, Eresh, Bowl I think it's quite clear from those references the extent to which you can change sex and that the concept of gender identity is established. I think misgendering is more and more being viewed as a form of harassment yes. Things will only become clearer over the next year I guess so perhaps we'll all get more clarity one way or the other.

Seek I don't think you are in danger of being 'cisgendered' in day to day life.

Have a good day all.

By pointing out cognitive distortions I was trying to highlight some (what I perceived) as errors in thinking.

Thinking transwomen are women is a cognitive distortion
Thinking that feelings of gender override biological fact is a cognitive distortion

Pretty much the entire TRA demand list is cognitive distortion - with added threats.

I've just pointed out the extent to which you can change sex. You can't.

Aren't Labour doing any analysis of why they are losing women voters in droves?

I live in an ultramarginal constituency where the Tory MP got reelected by just a few votes last time. He's worse than useless, never to be seen and denied that severe child poverty exists here - saying poor parents should be reported to social services! Any letters to him get a proforma reply and then ignored. It bloody infuriates me that I feel I have to vote Labour next time as that's better than letting this guy get in again and I'm a lifelong Labour voter and party member! If only there was a feedback box on the ballot that one could fill in without the vote being classed as spoiled... I'd probably have to request additional sheets of paper then though.

You cannot change sex hormonally. The phrase itself is nonsensical. It’s like saying you can change sex musically. Hormone levels do not dictate sex. There are patterns of hormonal activity associated broadly with each sex and what transwomen aim for is a rough approximation of that. It is only rough - you cannot ever reach a total replica of female hormonal secretion/ actioning etc. It’s a crude replica.

You cannot change sex via anatomical changes.

A woman who has had breasts, ovaries and womb removed due to cancer is still a woman. A male soldier who has had severe IED injuries resulting in the removal of his genitalia is still a man. Again you can surgically alter an external body to mor resemble that of the opposite sex but it’s never that effective. The form is not that accurate and true function is absent.

Neither of those things ‘are’ sex. Sex is immutable, inmate and coded into every nucleate cell in the body from conception. It affects the growth and development of all systems. It cannot be altered.

Back on topic. Is there anything we can do to support the woman being targeted. Her twitter makes it clear views are her own, and provides no link to her job. Someone went to effort to launch this complaint.

Personally I think that complaints to the labour party should be about the person bringing it into disrepute I.e. any intolerant witch hunters who consider reading a dictionary out loud a hate crime while implying they are linked to the labour party

I've complained to the Labour Party about LM before, I was told I would hear back from them in 10 working days. That was about 3 months ago and I've heard nothing but I just assumed they're inefficient.

I've left the party now. People who are still members could email [email protected] with their thoughts.

What is it that's said so often on the relationships board regarding abusive men?

When someone tells you who they are, listen to them. The Labour party have made it pretty clear really.

Is she likely to be a member of union? I would hope unions have their members backs in this. Also it's being reported she is a member of labour. How is this known? Has there been any misuse of membership data to obtain this knowledge?

"When someone tells you who they are, listen to them."

Considering what this whole conversation is about, throwing this out is hilarious because its the one thing you are all shouting about NOT doing in regards to trans people.
"When someone tells you who they are, listen to them. Unless they are telling you they are trans, then you totally dismiss them and loudly discuss with your friends what we can do to reduce the trans threat."

Buddhists are also religiously-mandated to always tell the truth
True but even if we weren't I still wouldn't say men are women and women are men.

"When someone tells you who they are, listen to them. Unless they are telling you they are trans, then you totally dismiss them and loudly discuss with your friends what we can do to reduce the trans threat."

I once chatted to somebody who believed they were the incarnation of the Archangel Michael. I didn't believe him either.