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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Bad feminist :(

88 replies

DidoAndHerLament · 20/05/2018 09:36

I didn't watch the royal wedding yesterday. Because I think the monarchy represent the worst display of revolting inherited privilege and wealth. And because I think marriage is outdated patriarchal nonsense.

However. I have just watched a 10 minute video of the 'best bits' from yesterday, and I am crying. A mixture of joy and sadness I think. And (can't believe I'm saying this), a tinge of national pride.

Do I need to tear up my feminist memberhsip card??

OP posts:

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 20:34

Clothes are an art form. Why should women not be interested in clothes?

Both sexes have used clothing as an art form throughout human history. I love the history of clothes, men and women's. It's more interesting than the history of killing each other, that's for sure.

Offred · 20/05/2018 20:47

Yes, at some point ‘being interested in clothes’ became a ‘pink brain’ thing. So now women are afraid to be interested in clothes because of the political implications of it.

Offred · 20/05/2018 20:48

If you are a woman you have to prove what kind of woman you are all the time. If you are a man mostly you are expected to prove you aren’t a woman (gay).

Mamaryllis · 20/05/2018 20:58

I went to a royal wedding party. I don't see it as damaging my feminist credentials. Feminists are perfectly able to watch and consider each aspect critically and enjoy the spectacle, the art, the music, the pomp and ceremony, and even shed a tear at the newness of early relationships and the hope entwined in the public statement of togetherness. I thought it was interesting that they removed obey. There was no giving away. I also noticed that the bish changed the words 'let no man cast asunder' to remove 'man'. I appreciate the careful thought process that had obviously gone into the planning. It was the first time I have heard the alternate wording used in a service, and I thought it was a very definitive moment. It's interesting to watch traditions change over time.
Having served for 16 years and come across both Wales's in professional contexts, I can't get too angsty about the ceremonial aspects of such things - I had a military wedding myself (notable difference - our honour guard did carry swords, so again a notable and definitive decision that Harry's party would not) and enjoy the tradition as an art form. I can blather for hours about misogyny in the military, but it was also interesting to see the females carrying their rifles etc, instead of shiny batons
I'm happy to fight anyone who tries to snaffle my membership card.

Mamaryllis · 20/05/2018 21:02

PerspicaciaTick · 20/05/2018 21:04

From Meghan's page on the Royal Family website...makes a refreshing change for someone in the public to admit to being a feminist. I'm guessing that if she is one, the op can be one too.

HotRocker · 20/05/2018 21:11

I didn’t watch it, I haven’t seen any highlights and I haven’t looked on the Internet. I’m not remotely interested in the royal family or anything they do, and the feeling is mutual as far as I’m aware.

NoSquirrels · 20/05/2018 21:12

The person who had the most difficult job on the day must have been the left outrider in the procession by the Household Cavalry whose horse was trying to bolt all the way back from the church.

Oh my god yes! He will have needed a stiff drink after. I was on tenterhooks watching him, I thought he was amazing. DH and I were discussing what would the protocol be if the rider thought he just HAD to get ahead and let the horse go a bit. Poor bloke. I breathed a sigh of relief when they got through the gates to the private park and away from the crowds!

SarahCarer · 20/05/2018 21:26

@Rufustheyawningreindeer I guess unravelling it from imperialism really with all its implications. I didn't mean to sound judgy and was genuine when I said I wasn't. Reflecting on my own surprise...for me being pretty gender neutral and rejecting femininity means not bothering about clothing much at all but actually that is just a handy bi product, since I have no time to think about my appearance. So maybe can't be arsed about my appearance or that of others is actually primary and rejecting femininity is secondary!

OlennasWimple · 20/05/2018 21:27

Father and son horses were the outriders - typical men, eh, trying to steal the show!

LaSqrrl · 20/05/2018 21:32

Alteratively, maybe Amal just likes a nice yellow frock and, in her line of work, doesn't get much opportunity to wear one?

She is married to Clooney, and they go to all the Hollywood events.

Princess Anne managed to throw on a frock and not behave like that.

quencher · 20/05/2018 21:59

Are people really debating what Amal wore? That is depressing. She looked and great. Do people want her to turn up wearing a black puffed up plastic bag with bucket for a hat and sun glasses?

LassWiADelicateAir · 20/05/2018 22:32

Father and son horses were the outriders - typical men, eh, trying to steal the show!

Thanks. I wouldn't have found that story.

People are not debating what Amal Clooney was wearing. One poster has singled Amal Clooney for nasty and unjustified comments.

Everyone at the wedding would have put an effort into what they were wearing. I didn't see any indication that Amal was "lowering herself" or that she was behaving any differently from any of the other guests.

quencher · 20/05/2018 22:58

With the heels she was wearing and cobble stones everywhere, George c can be very handy as a crutch. Probably that's what the previous poster noticed.

LassWiADelicateAir · 20/05/2018 23:07

She had her arm linked with Clooney's. I quite often do that with my husband regardless of the height of my shoes.

I noticed that many couples were holding hands. I don't like holding hands , it feels a bit too young love/ teenagerish so I take his arm instead. Even if she were holding on for fear of slipping on cobbles it doesn't justify what has been said about her.

MrsHathaway · 20/05/2018 23:13

I thought it was interesting that they removed obey.

I'm surprised that you're surprised. It isn't in the standard order of Common Worship (ditto "no man") so you have had to actively choose it since 2000. I've only been to one "obey" wedding in my life. I don't think it's a statement to omit it, but it's certainly a statement to include it.

Elendon · 20/05/2018 23:23

As a card carrying republican atheist feminist, I watched the whole thing and thoroughly enjoyed the spectacle. I don't know how people kept a straight face during parts of Bishop Murray's speech, though some of it was quite moving. I didn't like Amal Clooney's frock and thought George was looking very aged. I thought Daria looked the most regal of the lot and cannot understand those feeling sad for her for being 'alone'.

TeiTetua · 20/05/2018 23:29

"She was lovely"--No, no no. "She was perfectly acceptable, the same as we all are, all the time." Get a grip, people.

LassWiADelicateAir · 20/05/2018 23:32

I wanted to yell at Clooney and quite a few of the other men to take their hands out of their pockets. It ruins the line of a suit.

LaSqrrl · 21/05/2018 00:08

One poster has singled Amal Clooney for nasty and unjustified comments.

Oh, meow on the 'one poster' Lass, meow.

I singled her out precisely because she is a woman of achievement. It belittles her to behave in such a way. Not for what she was wearing, but her behaviour.

Second wave feminism fought for the right for women to do high-powered jobs, without having to look/behave like coy little schoolgirls. You know, just like adults, actual people.

Wearing heels on cobblestones - also risky behaviour. I have torn the tendon in my ankle (on stairs). Painful, crippling, and nearly 30 years later, still plays up from time to time. That same injury can be had by going over when wearing heels on cobble stones. So there is that side of it also (applicable to all the women wearing heels that day).

LassWiADelicateAir · 21/05/2018 00:16

If I had said "LaSqrrl has made nasty and unjustified comments" you would have called me out on that too. You are the only poster who has decided to attack Amal Clooney in this way.

So far you have said she is losing IQ points, lowering herself, acting like a coy school girl and belittling herself for basically no reason other than you don't approve of her shoes.

Niskasrevenge · 21/05/2018 00:25

The wedding left me cold. I hate inherited privilege and patriarchal tradition. I am a curmudgeonly bugger.

For some reason, however, one glance at the article about the beautiful father-and-son team of grey outrider horses - and I’m bawling!

Perimenopause?

LaSqrrl · 21/05/2018 00:33

Stop twisting my words Lass, you know I did not say that.

If this thread is about "how lovely everyone looked" and not about feminism, then what is it doing in feminist chat? As it sits within the feminist chat forum, then criticism from a feminist perspective is fair game.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 21/05/2018 04:39

I watched the wedding - I love looking at a bit of pomp and circumstance and I love fashion. My mum was a milliner and a seamstress, so we grew up caring about fashion. I rarely wear dresses or makeup anymore, but I still love admiring beautiful clothes.

The other day I was re-reading Georgette Heyer's "These Old Shades" and in one scene the Duke of Avon was dressed for a grand function. He was wearing (and I paraphrase), high heeled shoes, a full skirted coat with embroidery, a powdered wig, face patches, jewellery and he was carrying a fan. There was no suggestion that his clothing was not masculine; the finery was entirely appropriate for an 18th century aristocrat. What constitutes appropriate clothing for the sexes isn't at all stable over time.

As to Amal Clooney's mannerisms, that made me think quite hard. If gender is culturally mediated by social expectations, as feminism posits, is there such a thing as neutral gender expression?

Her mannerisms might be read as "girly", but how much of that is our understanding of cultural expectations versus her own personality? What would be appropriate mannerisms for a woman of her intellect and capability? Would more stereotypically masculine mannerisms seem more suited to her achievements? But that would be playing into another stereotype that success depends on behaving like men.

If you are an international human rights lawyer, does it undermine your tangible achievements if you throw on heels and a pretty frock?

Thanks for the thought starter LaSqrrl!

Floisme · 21/05/2018 08:11

Besides, you missed the point, did I mention the frock? That was not what I was upset about, it was her mannerisms of extreme femininity that concerned me. Very sad to see that an intelligent woman has to lower herself into being a decorative object.
Sorry my mistake. But if you're not talking about the frock then I'm really not sure what Amal Clooney has done to upset you. The shoes and useless little bag are both very silly but she's hardly alone in that. Admittedly I've only looked at still photos so maybe I'm missing the mannerisms. I think you may have studied it all far more carefully than me.

Clothes, yes - bloody love 'em.

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