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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Gender pay gap

362 replies

FlyTipper · 14/05/2018 08:08

The world divides into two: those who believe a gender pay gap exists, and those who don't.

Those who don't say women are doing different jobs. They are working part-time, prioritising home/family, do not want the high level responsibility and work load associated with high profile jobs. Thus women choose lower paid jobs because they prefer the conditions.

Those who believe it exists say two people presenting the same show or headlining the same film should be paid the same but clearly are not.

My position: women do different work and this largely explains the observed pay gap. But where the world is set up for men to succeed, women have to pick up the 'crumbs' they can. SO the pay gap doesn't truly exist, but that isn't because of women's choice.

As befits my character, I like to have my views tested. DO you agree?

OP posts:
fmsfms · 20/05/2018 21:56

@picassospaintbrush " Do you have a degree in stating the bleeding obvious?"

I didn't think the billions paid into mens football would need explaining but clearly it did (I didn't even want to have that discussion in the first place)

fmsfms · 20/05/2018 21:57

Hi @SonicVersusGynaephobia

"You used a personal experience or an isolated example instead of a sound argument or compelling evidence.

It's often much easier for people to believe someone's testimony as opposed to understanding complex data and variation across a continuum. Quantitative scientific measures are almost always more accurate than personal perceptions and experiences, but our inclination is to believe that which is tangible to us, and/or the word of someone we trust over a more 'abstract' statistical reality.

Example: Jason said that that was all cool and everything, but his grandfather smoked, like, 30 cigarettes a day and lived until 97 - so don't believe everything you read about meta analyses of methodologically sound studies showing proven causal relationships."

yourlogicalfallacyis.com/anecdotal

MrGHardy · 20/05/2018 21:59

He sounds like every run of the mill MRA I ever argued against.

"Naughty @fmsfms using evidence!"

I lol'd at the irony.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:02

I know you don't know what I'm getting at, I honestly didn't expect you to.

But it will be clear to most people here so that's absolutely fine. If they want me to elaborate I will.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:03

Should we have a chat about obsessive compulsive disorder or is that inappropriate?

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:05

(I didn't even want to have that discussion in the first place)

Even more irony.

moimichme · 20/05/2018 22:13

@Picassospaintbrush Grin

What mundane title should we give a new thread where we can actually discuss this topic properly? Wink

thebewilderness · 20/05/2018 22:18

If you wish to understand what is happening here, fms, I suggest you google "Sauce for the goose...".

Vicky1990 · 20/05/2018 22:19

Can I ask again does anybody know of an instance when a man and a woman were paid different wages for doing exactly the same job?.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 20/05/2018 22:21

Vicky asked for examples. I have examples.

Some are saying it (sex pay gap for equal work) never happens. It does.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 20/05/2018 22:22

Can I ask again does anybody know of an instance when a man and a woman were paid different wages for doing exactly the same job?

Yes.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:23

Yes, thousands, but then I'm a pay expert and do this for a living, under NDAs. For FTSE 100 companies.

Vicky1990 · 20/05/2018 22:38

Can you share some of the examples of different pay for exactly the same job.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 22:40

Non Disclosure Agreements.

fmsfms · 20/05/2018 22:48

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to alter any revealing details or identifying information

thebewilderness · 20/05/2018 22:52

That's a nasty bit of bait lying there stinking up the place.

Jamiem80 · 20/05/2018 22:52

I worked in care for a little while no secret was made that women were preferred employees and while the pay was shit for them mine was frequently illegal. They disputed mileage and hours worked so u was always short.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 23:15

Yep, I've consulted for a a very big health and social care firm. The saddest thing is the Board had no idea about the tax credit system and housing at all, not he fist clue, had no idea the wages were subsided and any pay increase or increased hours got clawed back form income tax credits in arrears and could mess up housing. So increasing pay is just increasing the tax take, it goes straight back to the treasury.

The fault lies in the rates paid by LAs. They are not given enough money. I went to a government consultation to try to talk about it but the wealthy old man I spoke to couldn't keep his eyes open. They need to ring fence increased tax income from tax credit cuts on pay increases to recycle it back into social care pay. I banged on about it but it's hard to get people that live at such a different income level to listen.

Picassospaintbrush · 20/05/2018 23:16

I am not allowed to take the data off the company servers.

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 07:21

I'm sure you're intelligent enough to alter any revealing details or identifying information

An NDA is an NDA. Disclosure, in anyonymous setting is illegal. With details changed is illegal. If you change the details it’s no good to you anyway. I could tell you I was a high powered ostrich polisher and my colleague Bob was paid 12.7% more than me. I’d be making that up of course, because ... NDA.

I’ve seen it happen, it’s happened to me and it’s happened to colleagues. An actual pay expert working with FTSE100 companies is telling you it’s widespread.

May I ask why you keep dismissing the idea that yes, in some places men are paid more than women? It’s not the only reason for the pay gap but it’s naive in the extreme to say it doesn’t happen.

If you want named names go google. Several examples from the BBC this year, for example, over Wimbledon I think there was one. there will be tribunals ongoing and completed for many companies.

Of course it happens. You’re very naive if you think it doesn’t

fmsfms · 21/05/2018 07:46

@bowlofbabelfish

The BBC pay gap is the biggest load of nonsense ever (and I actually already brought that up)

Here's what I said "If David Attenborough feels too old to narrate Blue Planet 3 and the BBC hire a young unknown male co narrator, should they get paid the same"

Attenborough is clearly who most people associate with the show, he's the name brand behind it

Go look back at the other examples

Did Munroe Bergdorf get paid the same as Cheryl for their loreal campaign?

Can Munroe charge/ask more for her time now she has a bigger profile

Is it fair that the Victoria's Secret Angels get paid more for their annual show than the non angels?

Going back to the BBC, Carrie Grace admitted that her stories from China make it on air less than those from the States. So the job of international editor might be the same title in different regions but clearly other regions/editors are more productive

Funny that, that a communist one party state with a different language, culture and no free press of less interesting to British audiences than the USA, lol

fmsfms · 21/05/2018 07:47

"May I ask why you keep dismissing the idea that yes, in some places men are paid more than women?"

Because the data (already linked) says the pay gap almost disappears in like for like jobs

fmsfms · 21/05/2018 07:49

I'm steered by evidence and facts, not what I want to believe, a difficult concept for most people here

Back to the BBC, does Matt LeBlanc get paid more for Top Gear than his male co hosts? I wonder why that is

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/05/2018 07:55

Because the data (already linked) says the pay gap almost disappears in like for like jobs

Almost? Not totally? You would expect people in like jobs to be paid ballpark salaries. If the men are getting 12% that’s not an issue, because it’s a smaller component?

And yet it’s happened to me, others have said it’s happened to them and someone who works in the field has told you it’s fairly widespread? Are we lying?

There are multiple causes to the pay gap. Structural inequalities, such as women tending to drop out before higher levels (due to societal pressures) for example. Maternity leaves, etc etc. These are all causes. The like for like men paid more is a cause too. At the higher levels NDAs are very common. Even at my level - I’ve signed several over the course of my career.

Together, all these causes add up to form the concept of the sex pay gap. I thought that was fairly well established? It’s a complex issue with multiple causes. You seem very resistant to the idea that one cause is like for like discrepancy - why?

fmsfms · 21/05/2018 08:22

We currently talking about equal pay for equal jobs, not the pay gap

Please don't tell me I need to explain the difference?

"Are we lying?"

Anecdotal experiences are not compelling evidence, it's a logical fallacy

And as I'm trying to get through to you there are lots of legitimate reasons why people men or women get paid more for doing the same jobs, e.g. Higher performance, ability output etc

Funny how nobody can ever acknowledge that or respond to the examples.