Gender pay gap

[FlyTipper]

The world divides into two: those who believe a gender pay gap exists, and those who don't.

Those who don't say women are doing different jobs. They are working part-time, prioritising home/family, do not want the high level responsibility and work load associated with high profile jobs. Thus women choose lower paid jobs because they prefer the conditions.

Those who believe it exists say two people presenting the same show or headlining the same film should be paid the same but clearly are not.

My position: women do different work and this largely explains the observed pay gap. But where the world is set up for men to succeed, women have to pick up the 'crumbs' they can. SO the pay gap doesn't truly exist, but that isn't because of women's choice.

As befits my character, I like to have my views tested. DO you agree?

@mrghardy

"Gender pay gap:

Is a measure of the difference between men’s and women’s average earnings across an organisation or the labour market. It is expressed as a percentage of men’s earnings. In the Britain, there is an overall gender pay gap of 18.1%." www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-difference-between-gender-pay-gap-and-equal-pay

"You’ve probably heard that men are paid more than women are paid over their lifetimes." www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

"The wage gap is a raw statistic that refers to the percentage of women’s earnings relative to men’s. It is the ratio of the median income of women who work full time to the median income of men who work full time. The wage gap does not consider differences such as education, experience, extra hours worked, industry, time away from work, etc.

For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap. The earnings gap is not a statistic, but it refers to the overall disparity in income between men and women." sites.duke.edu/sjpp/2016/wage-gap-vs-earnings-gap/

Au contraire my good Sir, it is you that has misunderstood the point

I take it back.

walking atm machines

You are not on a footballers wives thread. Nor on any other female chiche thread either.

The risk to women of becoming economically dependent on a man is enormous, remaining self sufficient career wise is vital if you can do it, many simply can't because of low paid work for men and women.

Is the point of the thread some sort of weird google gotcha parade?

If it is I am out and we can start another one for people that want to discuss pro active work on this.

fmsfms has the point of view that everything is fine as it is and will google away splatting the thread with any old stuff that seems to make a point and that builds nothing in terms of the conversation.

This is one of the problems we are facing in business with all the armchair philosophisers postulating their pet poopoo theory and wasting people's time.

The purpose of publishing the gap was to try to get to the root causes and deal with them, not to spend another ten years shitting on the idea.

How is posting 3 definitions of what the pay gap means "shitting on the thread"

@mrghardy disagreed with my defining it as a lifetimes earning gap, so I found 3 separate sources which also define it as an earnings gap

It's funny how people seem to have such an issue with me using sources to support my statements, whether that's studies or definitions

Lol 😆

We do have an issue with it and we would like you to stop please.

Ok good luck with that!

Picassospaintbrush that comment was in direct response to a comment on that topic and why men such as I weren’t posting on it. I was simply replying as to why. I’ve not once asserted that all women do it or even most women. However some women do and they are best avoided.

I quite agree women should have their own careers and financial independence, and I look forward to the day that is achieved and we won’t need to see such massive wealth transfer as occurs nowadays.

I for my part am happy to call out the sexual objectification of women and challenge it where I see it as that is terrible also.

Thanks TE MRA

"For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap."

Oh really? Says you? Because it fits into your narrative? Bye.

@mrghardy "says you"

No, says the site that I linked directly after that quote - hence the quote marks. LOL

Not going to address the other quotes? Face it, you were wrong

"For our purposes, the wage gap should be thought of as an earnings gap. The earnings gap is not a statistic, but it refers to the overall disparity in income between men and women." sites.duke.edu/sjpp/2016/wage-gap-vs-earnings-gap/

People are having trouble understanding why you want them to engage with opinions of people who are not here, fmsfms.

If you cannot formulate and express your arguments, and instead demand that people go read link after link after link of other people's opinions, people lose interest in talking with you.
It that is your goal then you have very nearly achieved it.

we're not debating opinions or arguments.

It comes down to the definition of what the "pay gap" means

It really boggles my mind that @mrghardy thinks that women being paid less than men does not translate into a lifetime earnings gap.

" and instead demand that people go read link after link after link of other people's opinions, people lose interest in talking with you."

It's not a demand, it's a source (in that case 3 separate sources) that support my definition/interpretation of the "pay gap"

If you cannot formulate and express your arguments, and instead demand that people go read link after link after link of other people's opinions, people lose interest in talking with you.
It that is your goal then you have very nearly achieved it.

In other words 'please dont pop our confirmation bias bubble

This thread is about the UK gender pay gap reporting which is happening in the UK now.

Your link is a US college journal talking about something else. We don't want to discuss that.

If you do please start your own thread on it and enjoy the conversation with people that want to discuss it with you.

OK, another person with no interest either has no decided to join in.

You are on the feminism board, if you remember. The clue is in the name.

Maybe they are from the US and don't know this is a UK site?

Dude, if you need to define the terms away from what is discussed in order to win an argument, think about how shit your argument really is.

If you can't provide rationale why you think we should talk about lifetime earnings rather than salary then I won't bother clicking on some random links that use a definition that fits your narrative.

"It really boggles my mind that @mrghardy thinks that women being paid less than men does not translate into a lifetime earnings gap."

I actually said the opposite. Shows how little you pay attention when you read.

"It's not a demand, it's a source (in that case 3 separate sources) that support my definition/interpretation of the "pay gap""

I do not give a flying f what you think the definition should be. If you can't provide rationale why we should talk about lifetime earnings and not salary then you have no argument.

@picassospaintbrush "This thread is about the UK gender pay gap reporting which is happening in the UK now.

Your link is a US college journal talking about something else."

another failure of a post from you. My very first source defined the UK pay gap

"Is a measure of the difference between men’s and women’s average earnings across an organisation or the labour market. It is expressed as a percentage of men’s earnings. In the Britain, there is an overall gender pay gap of 18.1%." www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-difference-between-gender-pay-gap-and-equal-pay

@mrghardy this is what you said earlier:

"Lifetime earnings is simply a consequence of your yearly salaries. There might be overlaps with lifetime earnings in the sense that the same event (child) can drive both, but it is not the same thing and the solutions for it are not the same."

I'm not sure what the problem is here?

Women are paid less than than men, therefore over the course of their careers they earn less than man

What is so hard to understand

What is so hard to understand

You.

Your point. I clearly pointed out that lifetime earnings is a separate issue from salary, albeit linked in some instances. For one, women in less well paying jobs will automatically have lower lifetime earnings. They might not ever lose out because they never have children and never face discrimination, and yet their lifetime earnings are lower. That is a separate issue from being penalized due to becoming a mother while fathers are rewarded.

So I ask you - how hard is that to understand?

@mrghardy "For one, women in less well paying jobs will automatically have lower lifetime earnings......That is a separate issue from being penalized due to becoming a mother while fathers are rewarded."

Yes, that's my point: women are paid less than men (except in their 20s), therefore by the time they've retired they've earnt less than men.

It is NOT a separate issue at all.

Women are paid less than men (for a number of reasons - yes falling behind in their careers after childbirth is one, as is choosing lower paid jobs), therefore they earn less than men

And going back to the original point I was trying to make - if you equalised pay even post maternity leave and any other factors eg retirement age- a person that takes time out to have children, go travelling or write a book that never gets finished will still have earnt less than the person that doesn't

Well 274 messages in and fmsfms is still explaining how to add up.

And going back to the original point I was trying to make - if you equalised pay even post maternity leave and any other factors eg retirement age- a person that takes time out to have children, go travelling or write a book that never gets finished will still have earnt less than the person that doesn't

Which only accounts for 20% of the difference, so clearly there is something else at work here, which we were trying to talk about.