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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Biggest mass shooting in Australia since Port Arthur (distressing)

126 replies

Chachachac · 12/05/2018 16:56

Australians will already be aware of the murder-suicide shooting in Margaret River in WA -

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/may/11/margaret-river-shooting-mother-and-her-four-children-among-victims

Two women (mother and daughter) and four children (the children/grandchildren) all shot by their husband/father/grandfather, who then turned the gun on himself.

While obviously not wishing to make anything more difficult for the extended family and friends (if such a thing were even possible - God knows what hell the children’s father is going through right now), the question is still what the fuck are we going to do about the scourge of male violence against women and children that plagues our societies?

The papers are full of questions as to why on earth this man could have killed his whole family, what was he going through that we don’t know about?

Personally I think these are the wrong questions.

In a tragedy like this we are often hesitant to lay blame or even to talk much about what has happened, seeing it as being in poor taste.

I reject that and I think that until we as a society address what’s going on and do something to stop male violence, we are going to see this happen over and over and over again.

But where on earth to begin?

I just feel so angry tbh.

OP posts:
womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/05/2018 03:41

I couldn't find anything on what transpired re Little - when they kill themselves after murder then it leaves a huge gap that the police don't always follow up on - so it gets labelled as he was mentally ill rather than as the inevitable maliciousness and payback for the ex's rejection of them.

It will be interesting to see if Melissa Little has anymore insight now that time has passed and she has the opportunity for therapy and reflection. At the time she was still referring to Little as "one of her 3 boys".

womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/05/2018 03:49

I found this re Melissa Little - it does point out a history of violence

Mammasmitten · 16/05/2018 05:38

BlytheByName well said

Mammasmitten · 16/05/2018 05:49

I'm from Australia. Something doesn't sit right with me about the alleged murder/suicide. Something in me says it was the ex. I have no proof of course. I have seen with my own eyes men who are perpetrators of domestic violence being protected. It's scares the crap out of me. Something misogynistic and dark is happening in this country.

Mammasmitten · 16/05/2018 06:04

'I have been following DV femicides/filicides for a very long time. In all those years, I have never heard statements like these from survivors - the ONLY time I have heard statements similar to this, is from the perpetrator (not saying he is the perp, but only ever a surviving perp says stuff like this). It does cross my mind as to whether there was an 'agreement' or 'arrangement' in place between this dude (children's father) and his former FIL. Which is speculation on my part, but experienced speculation nonetheless.'

LaSqrrl I couldn't agree with you more. Would like to further speculate that the ex could be the sole murderer punishing the whole family for protecting their daughter from him.

Mammasmitten · 16/05/2018 06:42

DancelikeEmmaGoldman from page 2. Yes, exactly. Everything you said is spot on.

Tanith · 16/05/2018 08:12

As I said, I don’t know enough about this case to comment on it and the police are still investigating what happened.
I was addressing the general comments about mental illness. It seems strange to let speculation about whether the grandfather even did this while balking at talk of possible mental illness.

I don’t recognise the assumption that women who kill their children are automatically painted as monsters while men are treated with sympathy. In the UK, it is usually assumed that a woman who kills her children is suffering from mental illness. Tania Clarence, for example, was generally treated with sympathy and understanding.
I know this isn’t the case in some other countries, and some social media comments can be intolerant. I remember being quite shocked at the contrast in attitudes over the Caroline Beale case in the mid 90s: had she been in the UK, she would have been treated very differently than she was in the US.
At the beginning of the 20th Century, there was such an outcry over mothers being convicted of murder that the law was changed to acknowledge infanticide and the mothers convicted of concealment instead.

A study by Manchester University a few years ago showed that a significant minority - think it was nearly 40% - of child deaths caused by parents was due to mental health issues.

Many males who wipe out their families fit in with that male violence pattern that has been suggested by research - though I would not include the Philpott case as he didn’t intend to kill his children - but not all such cases fit and I think it’s important to recognise that so we can try to understand what really happened in those cases that don’t fit, especially if medication may have played a part.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/05/2018 08:26

As this linked article describes - the guys who commit family annihilation are usually not known to police nor MH services and are very different to other murderers - www.wired.co.uk/article/family-killers

Please stop the conflation of mentally ill and family annihilation as it's not borne out by experts in the DFV fields

Tanith · 16/05/2018 10:05

“Please stop the conflation of mentally ill and family annihilation as it's not borne out by experts in the DFV field.”

That’s not what I’m doing.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 16/05/2018 10:28

*"“I still love who Peter was. If it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t have Katrina, I wouldn’t have her kids,” Aaron Cockman told reporters, speaking publicly for the first time since the tragedy. “So it’s not some random guy off the street who’s taken them away from me – he gave them to me and now he’s taken them away.

“If it had to happen, there is no better person...*

These are the words of someone who sees women and children as possessions, not real people

LaSqrrl · 16/05/2018 13:24

Thanks for that link woman. Yes, only the barest hint really "which include a range of violence-related and mental health issues". Articles at the time hinted he had 'changed' over the last three years (note the eldest was four). Was that change just a straightforward reveal of an abuser straight after the birth of the first? They had been together six years before that. I also searched for coroner's report, nada, must be sealed.

LaSqrrl · 16/05/2018 13:27

Mamas
Would like to further speculate that...

I was actually being subtle, inferring that may be the case. I have the feeling, or at least hope, further investigations are ongoing. Otherwise, that is one hell of a coincidence, with that other party involved.

LaSqrrl · 16/05/2018 13:46

Thanks for that next link woman
"Most family annihilators fell into the self-righteous or anomic categories, says Wilson, and those who were self-righteous were often "histrionic and dramatic", choosing significant dates such as father's day to commit their crimes."

Yes, I would agree with that. Farquharson killed his sons on father's day, didn't he? Shows ultimate control of "I made them, I am taking them away" with his father's day 'message'.

And Chris Foster would be the anomic type, with the creditors closing in, he made sure they got next to nothing:
"'He shot the dogs in the head, shot the horses in the head, shot the wife in the head. No distinction is there? It indicates he classes them all the same.'"
All his possessions. No one was taking any of them away from him.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 16/05/2018 14:38

Yes, I would agree with that. Farquharson killed his sons on father's day, didn't he? Shows ultimate control of "I made them, I am taking them away" with his father's day 'message'.

Yes and even worse (if there could be a worse) he let them drown instead of using the help of the two guys who stopped and then (even more worse) insisted they drove him to his ex wife's so he could be the one to tell her their sons were dead - I just see a huge Fuck You in all those actions. Really that guy should be killed for what he did - living is too good for him and I don't want my tax paid towards keeping him alive. Those two guys who's topped both had breakdowns I think (at least one of them did) when they realised they could have perhaps got the kids out but were thrown off down that (their natural instinct) by Farquharson telling them he had tried and it was too late.

Foster - yep I agree - the common factor with these family annihilation killers is they view other people as possessions - classic abuser red flag territory - people as objects for their use.

I spoke to Rosie Batty a couple of times - I really think she hadn't got to grips with the fact that her ex killed their son because he blamed her for his own behaviour and demise. To really get on a felt sense how these guys think takes a lot of time and a lot of "holding" by other women who have been through it - these guys are not fit human beings. To be prepared to throw his only child to the wolves as payback for leaving him is disgusting and evil - but it rarely gets named as such - people dance around evil and leave it to serial killers and rapists - but these guys are just as depraved.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 17/05/2018 07:25

Another great article - this time from Van Badham of the Guardian - about why these family annihilators are not "good blokes who snapped":

Yet, a local journalist covering these events, Robert Ovadia, denounced Dent and Ford as an “Outrage Brigade” in The West Australian. “Nobody is legitimising his actions,” Ovadia wrote of Peter Miles, but he “had a past ... why should we be afraid to report of what people thought of him before?”

There’s a single reason and it’s anything but outrageous: prevention.

Whatever may have transpired in Margaret River that morning, the narrative of the “good bloke” who “snaps” and kills his family is myth, whether it’s “what people thought of him” or not. And maintaining it as a frame for news reporting provides external validation to potential murderers that their inclinations towards violence are not unconscionable.

Indeed, “good bloke” memorialising around suspected killers instructs that you can both murder your family and retain your reputation.

We know it provides powerful affirmation, because we know that men who murder their female partners “continue to blame the deceased women after the killing”, “express a lack of remorse or empathy with the victim” and even see themselves as “victims who had been wronged”.

We also know that what domestic murderers have mostly in common isn’t the “heartache” that’s been speculated within Peter Miles. It isn’t tragic childhoods, substance abuse problems, persistent criminal behaviour or mental illness, either.

What perpetrators overwhelmingly share is the use of violence to enforce rigid stereotypes about gender roles where “being dominant in their relationships with women was central to their sense of manliness”. These men feel “belittled” by a partner’s desire to leave, because their understanding of masculinity is rooted in maintaining a unique power differential against women. We know “homicide is often triggered by a loss of control over the victim”. The intent to control a female partner informs many cases in which men murder their children.

We know these things not because we view them through “a kaleidoscope of causes”, but because armies of international researchers have spent years analysing the conditions that foster the violence, unpicking the social fictions of this criminality with study and data. It’s not to suit an agenda. It’s to keep women and children alive.

Canadian research discovered that 82.9% of these murders are no “snap” actions, but show elements of planning. A 10-year study in New South Wales that revealed 97% of women killed by their intimate partners “had been the victim of domestic violence during the relationship”. The pattern does not suggest tragic, personalised failure. It illustrates a syndrome in which masculinity, misconceived, asserts itself by scheming to destroy what it fails to control.

LaSqrrl · 17/05/2018 12:04

Geoff Hunt was another, although does not 'neatly' fit the categories I think. But maybe perhaps the 'disappointed'
"Disappointed killers believe their family has let them down, and the killing could be sparked by something like children not choosing to follow religious customs."

But it was HER injuries, indirectly. I say that because, for the year after her car accident and brain injury, he got heaps of praise for 'looking after her and the family'. But then she started to get better, return to work part time. Now suddenly, he was no longer the Big Hero. So mass killing sounds like the answer to that??? (Effectively, he baked in the glory of narcissistic supply, it dried up). He does not fit neatly into any category I don't think. He would not be classic 'disappointed'. He had 'standing' in the local community, and no known financial difficulties. What do you think?

LaSqrrl · 17/05/2018 12:08

her ex killed their son because he blamed her for his own behaviour and demise

A bit more than that. They were living in the UK, which he enjoyed, wanted to stay. He was not happy to move back down under. So just another layer of blame really.

caperberries · 17/05/2018 14:24

When were they living in the UK? I haven't read that

LaSqrrl · 17/05/2018 20:37

caper I cannot find where I read that, it would have been years ago, just a brief mention - or also entirely possible, I could have mis-remembered. Batty is English.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/05/2018 03:09

Hadn't heard that before Luke's father but makes sense - they always have some resentment from not getting their own way on do ethical g and use that as their excuse for their heinous acts - and of course she was to blame

womanformallyknownaswoman · 18/05/2018 03:22

Yes Geoff Hunt is a tricky one because we don't know what transpired before he killed them and himself - maybe she was planning to leave and her concerns about finances were to do with his withholding them to stop her doing that. I presume she would have wanted to be nearer town and her job n school. Her support worker, reading between the lines, was untrained in brain injuries and definitely a flying monkey - saying he was such a nice quiet guy. So I think it's the one where she separating out - I mean she was well enough to get a part time job so her so called rages (from support worker) didn't get in the way of her job. It doesn't make add up.

So presumably he was isolating and controlling her plus her rages may have been normal response to all the provocation the support worker didn't see. The father reported cheated at refereeing so there's some clues he was not a man of his word

I haven't read the inquest report in full - but the coroner nailed his disordered thinking

caperberries · 18/05/2018 07:11

I think his wife became quite uninhibited due to her brain injury, and consequently was prone to 'raging' at her husband and the children in front of other people, incl. the support worker.

I suspect Geoff Hunt, meanwhile, was probably very careful about presenting as a quiet, patient victim of his wife's rages in front of the support worker etc, but showing a different side in his treatment of his wife in private.

LaSqrrl · 18/05/2018 08:52

My suspicion is that he wanted to separate, particularly as she was getting better, he was not getting any more 'praise' for the White Knight bullshit fest that had been key in the first 12 months after her accident. Cut off his narcissistic supply. The kids went to a catholic school, not sure if one/both the parents catholic (maybe not, country area, may have been the only private school option). If one/both were catholic, then divorce was a big no-no. I still come back to cutting off the narcissistic supply though.

caperberries · 18/05/2018 08:54

Is that a typo? Did you mean she wanted to separate?

TransExclusionaryMRA · 18/05/2018 19:19

I’m sorry but you can’t murder people and be in any way considered “good”. The only killers that get my sympathy are those with genuine psychiatric disorders like schizophrenia where the sufferer genuinely has a psychotic break and cannot distinguish between delusions and reality.

I must admit I struggle with the nice guy who snaps narrative. Most terrible people can put a face on in public and indeed project virtues they do not genuinely possess.